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IDProjectCategoryLast Update
0022014AI War 2Gameplay IssueOct 31, 2019 3:18 pm
ReporterChris_McElligottPark Assigned To 
Status feedbackResolutionopen 
Product Version1.003 Sortable Objectives 
Summary0022014: We're still able to use cloaked units as pickets.
DescriptionI had not thought of this. Technically on some planets (no guardians), you could even use un-cloaked units. Noted by Vault on discord that he was having trouble setting up minipods as pickets. I then was thinking "wow I didn't think that was a thing now."

My thought is that if a player has any number ships on an AI planet for too long (10min? 20min?) with no fighting happening from the players against the planet AI owner, then we should have a new form of wave that comes with tachyon stuff and that really wants to attack that one planet. Basically the AI knows you're there, same as we know there are cloaked things on our planets, and them having some sort of reaction is only natural.

I don't want this to impact things like players just actually using stealthed units through a world (no reaction is the appropriate action), or to cause extra waves and whatnot during an actual fight (the AI is already reacting to you in some fashion). This is mostly anti-picket, or anti-tiny-beachhead-that-the-AI-doesn't-notice.
TagsNo tags attached.

Activities

Chris_McElligottPark

Oct 30, 2019 1:59 pm

administrator   ~0054157

Vault also notes: the AI would need a planet-wide decloaker in this situation. I'm inclined to agree. New unit for just anti-cloaking purposes that has a sniper-range tachyon system.

Chris_McElligottPark

Oct 30, 2019 2:17 pm

administrator   ~0054164

Vault further notes: "Then the next counter to the AI reacting is setting up a picket and having stealthed units bounce planets every 20 minutes.
Especially for border worlds.
Order stealth ship to go in and out.
You would have to make the timer countdown work like a raid engine."

My thoughts:
I think there's always going to be a way to force things, but it needs to be well beyond the level of diminishing returns and is not currently. Bat has a good point -- and those people should not feel bad for "playing nonoptimally" by not doing some crazy involved ritual with cloaked units.

My thought is that the countdown timer thing would essentially just say "are there player units on my planet?" And not care which specific ones. And I guess have a bit of a buffer in there for gaps. So if you somehow set up an infinite patrol, it would still trigger.

BadgerBadger

Oct 30, 2019 2:19 pm

manager   ~0054165

Last edited: Oct 30, 2019 2:22 pm

Why not give the Warden and Hunter Fleet a unique "Planetary decloaker" ship, and then let it clean things up.

BadgerBadger

Oct 30, 2019 2:52 pm

manager   ~0054168

Keep in mind that you could accomplish basically the same thing by spending 2 hacking points instead of a ton of random micro.

Chris_McElligottPark

Oct 30, 2019 4:16 pm

administrator   ~0054171

I'd be cool with the warden fleet having that ability -- that sounds rather novel, and would require people to distract the warden in general to do a stealth deep strike. Probably that's something that will need to be a lobby option that people can turn off if they don't like it.

And yes, I know that this is something that costs 2 hacking points. But we're trying to essentially overcome some very strong conditioning that comes from other games where the tons of random micro is a must. Even the first AI War required that of players who played at an advanced level, so I don't see the case of Vault as being unique. If it was just him coming from a specific other game that causes this style of thinking, that would be one thing; but the whole first AI War causes this style of thinking, which is why the alarm bells particularly went off for me.

RocketAssistedPuffin

Oct 30, 2019 4:30 pm

reporter   ~0054174

An idea I had related to this and Deepstriking:

AI Command Stations have a very weak, planetary decloaker. Essentially it knows *something* is there (i.e cloaked transport), and now it's scanning to find where it is.

Cloaking won't regenerate if it's being drained, so a cloaked Flagship will eventually need to be in non-AI territory.

Bumping into a Guardian (Tractor or Gravity) with Tachyon or another source should probably let those take over. It might already happen - a mobile tractor unit moving near a Tractor Array will actually let the Array take over whatever it is holding automatically.

BadgerBadger

Oct 30, 2019 5:19 pm

manager   ~0054178

I think if we do both Puffin's solution and my solution that would be good. Both sound worthwhile.

Chris_McElligottPark

Oct 30, 2019 5:21 pm

administrator   ~0054180

I quite agree on both points. That's a really good idea!

ZeusAlmighty

Oct 30, 2019 6:00 pm

manager   ~0054182

first impression of command stations getting plantary tachyon coverage is that this would really affect how I use things like raid frigates. I currently use these by killing a guardpost, retreating until they get their cloaking back, then repeat as needed
this would undermine this strategy altogether if cloaking was never allowed to regenerate--I would be forced to withdraw (tedious) or otherwise be compelled to kill command stations all over the place--bad incentive
suppose it depends if raid frigates were allowed to regenerate cloaking while docked in flagship
if that is still possible, my grievance isn't as great. But perhaps there should be a separate structure for this functionality that doesn't have an AIP cost attached

BadgerBadger

Oct 31, 2019 12:45 am

manager   ~0054193

Last edited: Oct 31, 2019 12:45 am

I am close to giving the Hunter/Warden bonus income to spend on tachyon emitting units. Stlll some bugs to work out on my end.

If that doesn't fix things then we can approach the problem again.

BadgerBadger

Oct 31, 2019 3:18 pm

manager   ~0054208

I've given the hunter and warden fleet some bonus decloaking units. Lets see if that helps.

Issue History

Date Modified Username Field Change
Oct 30, 2019 1:57 pm Chris_McElligottPark New Issue
Oct 30, 2019 1:59 pm Chris_McElligottPark Note Added: 0054157
Oct 30, 2019 2:17 pm Chris_McElligottPark Note Added: 0054164
Oct 30, 2019 2:19 pm BadgerBadger Note Added: 0054165
Oct 30, 2019 2:22 pm BadgerBadger Note Edited: 0054165
Oct 30, 2019 2:52 pm BadgerBadger Note Added: 0054168
Oct 30, 2019 4:16 pm Chris_McElligottPark Note Added: 0054171
Oct 30, 2019 4:30 pm RocketAssistedPuffin Note Added: 0054174
Oct 30, 2019 5:19 pm BadgerBadger Note Added: 0054178
Oct 30, 2019 5:21 pm Chris_McElligottPark Note Added: 0054180
Oct 30, 2019 6:00 pm ZeusAlmighty Note Added: 0054182
Oct 31, 2019 12:45 am BadgerBadger Note Added: 0054193
Oct 31, 2019 12:45 am BadgerBadger Note Edited: 0054193
Oct 31, 2019 12:45 am BadgerBadger Assigned To => BadgerBadger
Oct 31, 2019 12:45 am BadgerBadger Status new => assigned
Oct 31, 2019 3:18 pm BadgerBadger Note Added: 0054208
Oct 31, 2019 3:18 pm BadgerBadger Assigned To BadgerBadger =>
Oct 31, 2019 3:18 pm BadgerBadger Status assigned => feedback