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IDProjectCategoryLast Update
0026719AI War 2Bug - GameplayApr 4, 2022 9:35 pm
ReporterEcthelon Assigned ToChris_McElligottPark  
Status resolvedResolutionfixed 
Product Version4.004 Easy There, Hack Response 
Fixed in Version4.011 Multiplayer Stability 
Summary0026719: Spire hammer AI seems to send unusually large waves
DescriptionSee attached save. Not sure if this is a bug or a balance issue.

Spire hammer AI has been sending 300+ strength waves at AIP 120. Hacking responses and exos have been similarly absurd. Hacking response was interesting because I reloaded and the AI didn't choose any spire ships that attempt, resulting in a much weaker response (1/4 of the strength). My guess would be that the AI is treating its spire ships like they're much weaker than they actually are.
TagsNo tags attached.

Activities

Ecthelon

Mar 13, 2022 3:29 pm

reporter  

Manual.save (437,077 bytes)

CRCGamer

Mar 13, 2022 9:08 pm

developer   ~0065411

Nope they aren't provided to the AI at cut rates. Actually the AI purchase price of Spire Hammer toys is usually three to six times as much for standard guardian tier stuff. What you are seeing is how the strength system over values combinations of DPS with health. The smaller Spire Hammer ships are on average only two to four times as durable as a comparable guardian and cost much more. To put things in perspective a Plasma Guardian only costs the AI 500 purchase points. A spire frigate costs 1250, and a railgun version of the AI spire frigate costs 1800. The AI version of the spire railgun destroyer costs 3000 or six times as much as a plasma guardian and a royal plasma guardian for the Royal AI only costs 800 to have twice as much health and damage as the standard guardian.

Really you'd see a higher level of incoming pain from Royal which pretty much exclusively uses buffed versions of guardians that at higher marks get stupidly durable. Spire Hammer is probably the hardest of the "Hard" AIs but it is pretty easy to take apart considering all its special units are vulnerable to ablative, anti-armor, anti-energy, and anti-high mass weapons.

Ecthelon

Mar 14, 2022 1:36 pm

reporter   ~0065416

Last edited: Mar 14, 2022 1:42 pm

I'm sure there are counters but I don't think this is even close to proportional with other hard AIs difficulty at the same AIP.

Strength may well "overvalue" dps and health but whatever way you cut it these wave are just plain nasty. Staying alive long enough to do damage cannot be underestimated.

Granted my choice of turrets could be better. I just think that this is worth thinking about.

BadgerBadger

Mar 14, 2022 1:41 pm

manager   ~0065417

So this seems like actually a discussion over whether Spire Hammer should be Brutal or Hard

Lord Of Nothing

Mar 14, 2022 5:16 pm

reporter   ~0065418

My $0.02: It's definitely on the border between Brutal and Hard. It's definitely notably easier than stuff like Geneticist and Beast, but I'm not sure I could say the same about Swarmer, it might well be as nasty as that one. So maybe either Hammer is Brutal, or Swarmer is Hard?

Strategic Sage

Mar 14, 2022 7:57 pm

reporter   ~0065422

Last edited: Mar 14, 2022 8:02 pm

I support the motion to demote Swarmer to Hard. It was one of only three there at one point, but now there have been so many others added that are properly more painful, I think it would be more fitting down a tier. It would also make Spire Hammer feel less lonely. And lonely Spire simply cannot be countenanced.

I'm also not at all certain that I'd favor going up against Special Forces Master as compared to Spire Hammer. For waves absolutely. For having the gall to venture outside my own territory, nope. So FWIW, right now I'm thinking Spire Hammer is near the Hard-Brutal border, but it's not over that line.

CRCGamer

Mar 15, 2022 2:19 am

developer   ~0065428

Swarmer as an AI type has been sad ever since the Carrier Guardians got removed from planet and hack attack waves. This happened about a month after the Shift as new players were complaining that those guardians often were three times stronger than the strength estimate said they were. (Because drones aren't counted in that tooltip.) Basically Swarmer is a brutal AI if it actually dunks the player with a full toolkit that it hasn't had access to for the better part of a year. Similar story with Vicious Raider not being the same after it lost access to Raid Frigates.

So yeah Swarmer could do with either being knocked down a tier or get full access to its carrier spam back.

Chris_McElligottPark

Apr 4, 2022 9:35 pm

administrator   ~0065762

Thanks!

* After discussion on mantis, two of the AI types have had their difficulty reclassified. Swarmer has been demoted to Hard (they are on the border between Brutal and Hard), and Spire Hammer has been promoted to Brutal (they again are on that same border).
** Nothing is changed with these AI types in their actual function or balance, but it was agreed that these labels represent them better.

Issue History

Date Modified Username Field Change
Mar 13, 2022 3:29 pm Ecthelon New Issue
Mar 13, 2022 3:29 pm Ecthelon File Added: Manual.save
Mar 13, 2022 9:08 pm CRCGamer Note Added: 0065411
Mar 14, 2022 1:36 pm Ecthelon Note Added: 0065416
Mar 14, 2022 1:41 pm BadgerBadger Note Added: 0065417
Mar 14, 2022 1:42 pm Ecthelon Note Edited: 0065416
Mar 14, 2022 5:16 pm Lord Of Nothing Note Added: 0065418
Mar 14, 2022 7:57 pm Strategic Sage Note Added: 0065422
Mar 14, 2022 8:02 pm Strategic Sage Note Edited: 0065422
Mar 15, 2022 2:19 am CRCGamer Note Added: 0065428
Apr 4, 2022 9:35 pm Chris_McElligottPark Assigned To => Chris_McElligottPark
Apr 4, 2022 9:35 pm Chris_McElligottPark Status new => resolved
Apr 4, 2022 9:35 pm Chris_McElligottPark Resolution open => fixed
Apr 4, 2022 9:35 pm Chris_McElligottPark Fixed in Version => 4.006 Careful Of That Federation!
Apr 4, 2022 9:35 pm Chris_McElligottPark Note Added: 0065762
Apr 4, 2022 9:35 pm Chris_McElligottPark Fixed in Version 4.006 Careful Of That Federation! => 4.011 Multiplayer Stability