View Issue Details
| ID | Project | Category | Date Submitted | Last Update | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 0011813 | Skyward Collapse | Balance Issue | Jun 11, 2013 12:55 pm | Jun 12, 2013 10:18 am | |
| Reporter | Pepisolo | Assigned To | Chris_McElligottPark | ||
| Status | resolved | Resolution | fixed | ||
| Product Version | 1.007 Stats Fit For A God | ||||
| Fixed in Version | 1.008 Massive Bigness | ||||
| Summary | 0011813: Mytho Auto-Leveling Imbalance Versus Units | ||||
| Description | Posted this a while back on the near-term changes thread, so quickly sticking what I wrote here for extra visibility. "I think I've worked out one reason why Mythos at the moment seem a little more useful than humans -- automatic level up. Currently if you plop down a Mytho in the age of Gods it comes out as level 3! When a human unit comes out they start at level 1. This vastly reduces the usefulness of Schools and Universities later in the game, which would otherwise be super efficient at producing strong units versus powered Mythos units. If the player wants a level 4 Mythos then they should have to fork out the appropriate leveling up costs necessary. This would put a greater and far more natural strain on the current incense requirements as I understand it. This is one reason why we are finding people with massive amounts of incense in late game. " "The great thing about schools is that it is a very cost-effective way to get leveled up soldiers -- only problem is if Mythos already get a free double upgrade then what's the point? Cost-effective is nice, but free is always better. This really diminishes the usefulness of schools I think. The ability to plop down a few extra buildings and then get cheap improved soldiers as a result is one of the few advantages that units should have over Mythos -- except they don't because Mythos get the majority of their upgrades for free. The more I think about this the more ridiculous it is really. We've got this whole issue where Mythos are deemed OP compared to humans and Mythos are the ones progressively getting free upgrades. Crazy!" | ||||
| Tags | No tags attached. | ||||
| Internal Weight | New | ||||
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Hmm, this is a really good point actually. The tricky thing is that people were complaining how mythos were useless late in the game because they were too underpowered. Obviously if they would upgrade them then that's no longer an issue, but they were apparently not thinking to do that. Perhaps that is the lesser of two evils, though. This is a good one for some discussion before a change is made; might make a thread devoted just to this question and see what folks think? |
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I may be wrong about this, but as I recall, I think one of the reasons that people wanted an auto-level up is because player controlled Mythos would seem very underpowered versus bandit monsters which used to spawn regularly. Isn't it the case now that bandit monsters spawn far less than they used to, though? So now it won't seem like a chore to have to upgrade individual Mythos as much (if it even really did before). Indeed, I would prefer to have to think my way around any monster spawn problems rather than have my Mythos automatically buffed (without cost) to take care of the situation. A level 3 monster appears -- ok, probably gonna need a level 3 Mythos or maybe a couple of units and a level 2 Mytho to handle this. This enables you to use a bit more thought in how you are going to tackle certain situations rather than just: plop a upgraded Mytho down to clean house, then, as per usual. There was a little discussion of the issue on the near-term changes thread, although not much. |
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Hmmm, okay, this is a good point -- all of them are good points. I do think that people might balk at the idea of having to manually upgrade their mythos every time they create them, though. Gets a bit tedious, you know? If every mytho you create also requires multiple upgrades... ugh. And this would also throw the balance completely off in terms of your ability to field competent mythos in the late game with reasonable numbers of resources. Everything is thrice as expensive when it comes to mythos in the age of gods, for instance. I'm not quite sure what to do there. The bandit mythos will be making more of a return in the later ages, albeit a bit in a different form, as the 2.0 changes are implemented. Right now I'm inclined to consider mulling this as other changes are made, rather than jumping to a conclusion. You do make some really good points, but I feel like this has a lot of downstream ramifications to the late game that might not be immediately clear. |
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"I do think that people might balk at the idea of having to manually upgrade their mythos every time they create them, though. Gets a bit tedious, you know? If every mytho you create also requires multiple upgrades... ugh." This is the biggest valid concern that I can see regarding this potential solution, although personally I don't see it as a *huge* issue. I'm assuming that some kind of upgrade level selector UI option on the token itself is out of the question? For example, if you were to have a 1,2,3,4 in the background of each quarter of the current token with which you could choose what level of Mytho you would like to create from scratch. "And this would also throw the balance completely off in terms of your ability to field competent mythos in the late game with reasonable numbers of resources. Everything is thrice as expensive when it comes to mythos in the age of gods, for instance." Actually, I don't see this as a current problem. Most games I've seen played (yes I do a lot more watching of people playing the game than playing myself lately) or discussion I've read has generally indicated that players accumulate far too much unused resources late game, so a natural increase to these requirements would actually improve game balance. I recall Misery saying, for example, he's always got a lot of incense late game. Also, there was that big thread about Mythos being overly used versus units, this would shift the balance of this back quite a lot. Also, I'm not sure that resource-wise a Mytho would cost three times more -- I could absolutely be wrong about this -- as when I wrote the post a while back a fully upgraded Mytho seemed to be nearer twice the cost, but maybe this varies per mytho. Just mentioning this in case you've slightly overestimated the costs involved -- again, could be completely wrong here. "I'm not quite sure what to do there. The bandit mythos will be making more of a return in the later ages, albeit a bit in a different form, as the 2.0 changes are implemented. Right now I'm inclined to consider mulling this as other changes are made, rather than jumping to a conclusion. You do make some really good points, but I feel like this has a lot of downstream ramifications to the late game that might not be immediately clear." If you want to wait or even discuss this further in a thread that's fine. In terms of the balance between Units and Mythos I think that this issue is big. It severely reduces the worth of schools and makes the Mythos progressively more valuable than human units in late game. It can probably wait, though, as I don't really hear a big outcry about the situation. |
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More good points. A few notes in return: 1. The upgrade cost for units is linear. So to go from level 1 to level 2 it's a doubling of the cost generally. From 1 to 3 it's triple, etc. The values aren't very granular, so there's not much that can be done there usually. 2. When it comes to universities and other schools, those also make units come out at a higher level obviously... but also for free. Comparably speaking. 3. Trying to subdivide buttons would I think be very difficult visually, and would make the clickable area frustratingly small. 4. My best idea at the moment would basically be to say "mythos still come out at level 2 in the age of monsters, but you pay the full 2x cost or nothing at all for them now." And the equivalent for the age of gods. That would basically make mythos a lot more expensive as you go further into the game -- equivalent to doing those upgrades but minus all the clicking, and without the ability to have a low-level mytho if you prefer. It's all-or-nothing, which I can see rubbing some folks the wrong way. 5. I understand that this is a big issue, but there are other forces at work at the moment as well in terms of shifting the balance for all this. Changing all the dials at once is likely to make the game impossibly hard all of a sudden. Right now the bandits are already getting a big boost, and then the villains and heroes will be coming about, and a new souls system will encourage the use of human units more, and so on. There are some other things being tossed around about encouraging having fewer towns and so forth, too. Some or all of those might indirectly address this. |
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"1. The upgrade cost for units is linear. So to go from level 1 to level 2 it's a doubling of the cost generally. From 1 to 3 it's triple, etc. The values aren't very granular, so there's not much that can be done there usually." Ah, I see what you mean now. I was thinking more in terms of overall cost of a fully upgraded Mytho including the base cost (which is different to each upgrade cost) -- as in that not being be triple overall. This is not important, though, even if I haven't explained it well. Maths... bah! "2. When it comes to universities and other schools, those also make units come out at a higher level obviously... but also for free. Comparably speaking." Not 100% sure what you mean and it's been a while since I looked at the numbers in the game, but building those schools has a resource cost attached to it as well as occupying three town tiles. So, it's not really the same as just getting two free upgrades with zero negatives. Also, a LV3 Mytho will absolutely trash any LV4 Unit. The Semi-free upgrades that Schools allow should be one of the positives of Units, but it's quite nullified (and then some) by the Mythos' free upgrades. "3. Trying to subdivide buttons would I think be very difficult visually, and would make the clickable area frustratingly small." No probs. Understandable. "4. My best idea at the moment would basically be to say "mythos still come out at level 2 in the age of monsters, but you pay the full 2x cost or nothing at all for them now." And the equivalent for the age of gods. That would basically make mythos a lot more expensive as you go further into the game -- equivalent to doing those upgrades but minus all the clicking, and without the ability to have a low-level mytho if you prefer. It's all-or-nothing, which I can see rubbing some folks the wrong way." Balance-wise this seems pretty good, which is my major concern. Personally I'd rather have more control and do the extra clicks (2 per Mytho in the age of Gods), although I can see some people complaining about this at this stage. That is a secondary issue to the balance one, though, I guess. "5. I understand that this is a big issue, but there are other forces at work at the moment as well in terms of shifting the balance for all this. Changing all the dials at once is likely to make the game impossibly hard all of a sudden. Right now the bandits are already getting a big boost, and then the villains and heroes will be coming about, and a new souls system will encourage the use of human units more, and so on. There are some other things being tossed around about encouraging having fewer towns and so forth, too. Some or all of those might indirectly address this. " Actually I'm not sure that those things can indirectly address this correctly -- although maybe in a very hacky way. This just seems so foundational to me. Bottom line is that there must be an upgrade cost for a reason. Is there a good reason for Mythos to be able to bypass these costs? Not as far as I can see, it's just an unintended by-product of some other idea. Oh, won't go deep into this as I've said lots about it in one of the design threads, but implementing that Souls idea purely (or largely) to promote Unit usage versus Mythos when you have a foundational problem such as this one, seems like a bad move. If there are other reasons for the Souls idea then great otherwise it just seems like a drastic solution to me. |
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All right, you sold me. :) A number of changes related to all this, to make things clearer in general with upgrading, and to not throw the balance TOO off with this while still getting at your points: * The level and the "star for if it has a bonus applied" now show up visually above the heads of each unit. ** The star was previously shown larger and next to the faction flag behind the unit. But this was harder to see, and looked a little funky, and made the faction flag harder to see sometimes. ** The level of units was never previously shown except in tooltips, and really this is pretty darn critical information if you are considering the flow of an upcoming battle. *** Most likely the obscurity of this information was making new players not really do upgrades as much as they previously would have otherwise done. * The mythological creatures directly placed by players are no longer automatically granted upgrades to higher levels in the age of monsters and the age of man. ** Previously they would be level 2 in the age of man, and level 3 in the age of gods. This was just too overpowered compared to their human counterparts, and was messing with the resource usage in a negative way (ie, requiring too few). ** You can obviously still upgrade these at any time, manually, but now you have to pay for the upgrades to the respective levels rather than getting them for free. ** One reason we previously had the mythological creatures automatically upgrade was the confusion that new players would have as to why their mythologicals were getting trashed by enemy ones in the later ages. Now with the levels directly showing, this is no longer a point of confusion. * The "upgrade unit" action now costs 0 AP. This makes it a lot easier to use, which is important for a few reasons. ** Late in the game, you often wind up having way more resources than you might need, but not any more AP than you did before. This helps to balance that out. ** Now that mythological creatures are not auto-upgraded in the later ages, you'll be manually upgrading them a lot more, and the extra AP cost would just be too extreme for them. ** Side note: this does NOT devalue the schools too much. Doing an upgrade manually costs you 100% more resources for each level you go up. Schools produce higher-leveled units for free. * The upgrade unit tooltip when hovering over a unit is now more informative, showing you at a glance the resources you have on hand for each resource required for upgrading that unit. Waaaay easier to make decisions that way. |
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Sounds good to me. I'll be interested to see the reaction to this change, which balance-wise is tremendous and gives greater control although it adds a couple of more clicks per unit. One way to mitigate this if it isn't already possible in the game is to allow shift clicks to upgrade without having to reopen the upgrade menu. |
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Yep, shift-clicks are possible for every kind of object placement. |
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Oh, just one more idea that comes under the sub-divide the UI banner, but I just wanted to push it out. You could have a single sub-divide button of MAX level. Clicking this would create the largest level unit that your current resources would allow. A lot less intrusive than a 1/2/3/4 sub-divide. That's it. Just wanted to post that one (possibly not worthwile) idea up. Good to know about the shift click-thing. It really shouldn't be too much of a chore to upgrade. The extra control will be useful I think. Coupled with the improvements to balance it should be a great change. Edit: actually with shift-clicking in place, I don't really think a single sub-divide button is necessary. Just have to see what the reaction to the change is I guess. |
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Cheers, thanks. In terms of subdividing I think it still makes it too small and makes the unit graphic harder to see on the button. But sounds like you came to the same conclusion. :) |
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Yeah, it would be an unnecessary over-complication. Good work on the changes! |
| Date Modified | Username | Field | Change |
|---|---|---|---|
| Jun 11, 2013 12:55 pm | Pepisolo | New Issue | |
| Jun 11, 2013 1:22 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Note Added: 0032838 | |
| Jun 11, 2013 2:05 pm | Pepisolo | Note Added: 0032842 | |
| Jun 11, 2013 3:53 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Note Added: 0032846 | |
| Jun 11, 2013 5:19 pm | Pepisolo | Note Added: 0032850 | |
| Jun 11, 2013 7:32 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Note Added: 0032851 | |
| Jun 11, 2013 9:19 pm | Pepisolo | Note Added: 0032853 | |
| Jun 12, 2013 9:28 am | Chris_McElligottPark | Internal Weight | => New |
| Jun 12, 2013 9:28 am | Chris_McElligottPark | Note Added: 0032856 | |
| Jun 12, 2013 9:28 am | Chris_McElligottPark | Status | new => resolved |
| Jun 12, 2013 9:28 am | Chris_McElligottPark | Fixed in Version | => 1.008 Massive Bigness |
| Jun 12, 2013 9:28 am | Chris_McElligottPark | Resolution | open => fixed |
| Jun 12, 2013 9:28 am | Chris_McElligottPark | Assigned To | => Chris_McElligottPark |
| Jun 12, 2013 9:49 am | Pepisolo | Note Added: 0032857 | |
| Jun 12, 2013 9:52 am | Chris_McElligottPark | Note Added: 0032858 | |
| Jun 12, 2013 10:02 am | Pepisolo | Note Added: 0032859 | |
| Jun 12, 2013 10:04 am | Pepisolo | Note Edited: 0032859 | |
| Jun 12, 2013 10:09 am | Pepisolo | Note Edited: 0032859 | |
| Jun 12, 2013 10:13 am | Chris_McElligottPark | Note Added: 0032860 | |
| Jun 12, 2013 10:18 am | Pepisolo | Note Added: 0032861 | |
| Jun 12, 2013 10:19 am | Pepisolo | Note Edited: 0032861 | |
| Apr 14, 2014 9:29 am | Chris_McElligottPark | Category | Gameplay - Balance Issue => Balance Issue |
