View Issue Details
| ID | Project | Category | Date Submitted | Last Update | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 0001359 | AI War 1 / Classic | Gameplay Issue | Nov 14, 2010 4:24 pm | Jan 3, 2011 11:45 am | |
| Reporter | Spikey00 | Assigned To | Chris_McElligottPark | ||
| Status | closed | Resolution | won't fix | ||
| Summary | 0001359: Option to remove counterwave [guard posts]. | ||||
| Description | Please? It has come to a point where I am really quite annoyed with these types of attacks, and I would personally like for an option to disable it. | ||||
| Tags | No tags attached. | ||||
| Internal Weight | |||||
| related to | 0001373 | closed | Chris_McElligottPark | Counter for AI counterattack guard post |
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Yes, please! I'll second this one. |
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These are absolutely nasty. In some circumstances if fear them more than cross planetary attacks since: * the wave comes in less than a minute. * most of the time in your inner unprotected worlds. * rush your wormholes to pillage as many worlds as possible. So far I did not reach a point where I want them to be removed from my campaigns (that kind of scary makes my heart beat like crazy, which is good ^^). But they are kinda annoying because, in a normal wave I am warned about what kind of ship to expect. In a counterattack wave, the game tells me I'm gonna be attacked by "# Type" ships but the wave is barely composed of that kind but multiple types. This is very confusing since it makes you send the wrong counter to try and stop them (and they need to be stopped, fast). It would be good if the counterattack wave regrouped only the type mentioned or if only the number of ships attacking was shown (so new players wouldn't go: "oh crap game over"). |
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I'd support such an option; as well as a new AI that pretty much guarantees one of these on every planet (not to mention the dreaded double-counterwave planets). |
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@Heaven - to your list I'll add that the counterwaves are not in line with the current AIP, but with the level of the post, so I've been hit with 600+ Mk III bombers plus some other stuff incluing 2 starships, when my AIP was 200 or so. |
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Note that for the ships, the counter wave will use the mark level of the planet the counterwave guard post is on if it's higher then the current AIP mark level. Having said that, waves in general are getting an overhaul at the moment, of which this is a part. |
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Thank god they always spawn lower right where you can drop some grav turrets to slow them down. |
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That's good to know. Counter-attack guard posts are looking like they will be brutal on Snake maps. I've conquered half of a 80 planet galaxy and the very next planet has a mk4 counter-attack guard post. (there are additional lower mk ones farther along as well) How big will the wave be? I'm at tech 3 AIP wise if that makes a difference. |
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Oh silly me not realizing the counter wave size does not only depend of the AIP, I'll edit and remove that remark from my first post, thank you. |
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Haven't broken any of my games yet, but today was close. I was attacking on an AI home, and apparently there was a counterattack post there. I didn't notice the wave at first, but by freaky luck I noticed the numbers on galaxy map while checking on something else. 1000 ships on one of my inner planets, 2 hops from home. Luckily those were "only" 1000 Mk5 Parasites, so by moving my fleet there and quickly adding some missile turrets and tractor turrets I was able to limit the destruction to that planet. Should I have not noticed it, and if they would've headed for my home planet... I dunno what would've happened. I fear for the time when the wave consists of more than weak swarmer types... *shudder* Just curious altogether, why aren't the counterattack waves simply going to border planets. Being able to jump in without an adjacent warp gate, but still be limited to border planets would be much more fair, I think. Currently the counterattack wave is an attack you have no defense against. The build caps ensure that you can't ever have enough defense on every planet to be secure from these, nor can you have your entire fleet split evenly (and effectively) to cover every planet. The wave simply goes to a random planet and it's up to luck whether your choice for positioning of your fleet and turrets is in favor of defending against the wave at the time. At the very least the counterattack should take more than a minute, so you can react to it. I'd say minimum of 3 minutes, preferably 5, so you have extra time to position your fleet accordingly, which would be fair considering that the wave can go to places you would normally not need to move your fleet to. Could be a dozen hops from where your waves normally go to. |
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Am I the only one who loves these things? They add a much needed element of danger to the backfield, it's much too easy to "channel" most AI aggression so you're never under threat anywhere you don't mean to be. They're also literally the only regular post I have second thoughts about engaging, all the rest are trivial automatic kills. An option to turn them off isn't a bad thing, of course, but I'd certainly never use it. |
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That's why I suggested a couterattacker AI for those of you who think that way :) |
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No, this is seen as core to the AI's ability to disrupt turtles' defenses, now. Generally speaking there are very few mechanics that we have for the AI that can be outright disabled, as the cumulative effect tends to be pretty key to having a balanced game. These aren't even that bad generally, as they only attack you when you attack them, so you can be ready for them with a fleet waiting, etc. It's not like a CPA out of the blue. I think there has been some confusion with players about what counterattacks are, though, and that they are seeing some things that aren't counterattacks and thinking that's what they are. Counterattacks are always announced waves. Is that what you're even talking about? |
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The problem with these is really that when you have a lot of planets, especially on maps with long strings of planets, it's sometimes purely impossible to respond to the wave in time with sufficient force. You'd have to split your fleet widely to make sure you can, which in turn means you're likely to not prevail with a small sub-fleet. Especially against a counterattack from a mk4 or mk5 planet. It's simply too much based on pure luck. Builds caps make it impossible to prepare for it fully on large maps, and the stuff that have multipliers are basically not worth using ever, because even on inner planets they can cost you the entire game. At least consider giving the player sufficient time to intercept the counterattack wave. It's plenty unfair enough that the AI can bend the rules of warping. The lack of time given to the player makes it ridiculously unfair. |
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THAT is something I can agree with -- making sure that they are not to difficult in general. Somehow I didn't see all the comments here, just Spikey's original. I'll work on adding a higher wave time, but basically having the AI occasionally able to threaten all planets as a general idea is something that I don't intend to make optional. |
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When I'm about to pop one of those now: *I send a prayer to whatever space Gods would listen to me. *I build 2 to 3 transports, load them with 1/3 to half my main forces and send them to some planet that would be equidistant and if possible, less than 5 hops of the borders of my empire, to react as fast as possible. *I raid the Post and once I know what planet is the target, if non capped, I FF/Grav Turret/Tractor beam my wormholes (having Mk III Engineers is great for this if not i add +4 MK II on the planet), the main danger being the wave spreading on your other planets, then send the transports. Of course in a Snake type map, counterattacks can be a nightmare, and the bigger your empire the more dangerous they become. |
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x4000: Fair enough. ;) I actually like surprises, as long as it's always possible to counter them. Heavens: Ditto about big empires making counterattacks dangerous. It's actually slightly contradictory to what x4000 said above, about supposedly being good against turtles, which usually have less planets and more defenses per planet, so they can generally handle the counterattacks more easily. That is, if my assumption of what turtling is is correct. |
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I don't play on snake maps but my fandom of logistics commands helps me a lot against these, the slowdown has a huge impact due to their spawn location and the speedup of my own fleet allows me to respond MUCH faster. I've popped a blackholed planet and managed to get a command up to conquer the BHM, move my fleet to the countered planet and intercept the enemy units there before they managed to reach any wormholes. |
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* Warp Jammer Command Stations now block counterattack waves. ** Thanks to Winter Born for suggesting. * Counterattack waves are now 4x larger than normal, but take a full 14 minutes to arrive. This makes them more of an event than they used to be, even, but also makes them much easier to prepare for and deal with. ** Thanks to Spikey00 and others for inspiring this change. |
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Would that be 4x of a normal wave or 4x of a normal counter-attack wave? I'm still fuzzy on the how the counter-attack wave size is decided. (mk level of said wave I understand) |
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That's a good compromise, Chris. Lots of time to prepare, but it results in an attack with real teeth. Mark IV counter-attack posts are going to be truly dangerous this way, which is as it should be. |
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It's 4x the size of a normal wave, so 2x what a counterattack wave used to me. The wave size is whatever your next wave size would be, but times four. Glad you like the compromise, Vinraith -- hopefully others do as well. |
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Thanks for the info. The new change should be fun. |
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My pleasure! |
| Date Modified | Username | Field | Change |
|---|---|---|---|
| Nov 14, 2010 4:24 pm | Spikey00 | New Issue | |
| Nov 14, 2010 4:46 pm | LintMan | Note Added: 0003466 | |
| Nov 14, 2010 5:14 pm | Heavens | Note Added: 0003470 | |
| Nov 14, 2010 5:29 pm | Toll | Note Added: 0003471 | |
| Nov 14, 2010 5:39 pm | LintMan | Note Added: 0003472 | |
| Nov 14, 2010 6:15 pm | Dazio | Note Added: 0003477 | |
| Nov 14, 2010 6:59 pm | Winter Born | Note Added: 0003479 | |
| Nov 14, 2010 7:07 pm | wyvern83 | Note Added: 0003483 | |
| Nov 14, 2010 7:30 pm | Heavens | Note Added: 0003485 | |
| Nov 14, 2010 7:31 pm | Heavens | Note Edited: 0003470 | |
| Nov 14, 2010 9:49 pm | HitmanN | Note Added: 0003495 | |
| Nov 14, 2010 9:56 pm | HitmanN | Note Edited: 0003495 | |
| Nov 14, 2010 10:36 pm | Vinraith | Note Added: 0003499 | |
| Nov 14, 2010 11:30 pm | Toll | Note Added: 0003503 | |
| Nov 15, 2010 9:06 am | Chris_McElligottPark | Note Added: 0003523 | |
| Nov 15, 2010 9:06 am | Chris_McElligottPark | Status | new => resolved |
| Nov 15, 2010 9:06 am | Chris_McElligottPark | Resolution | open => won't fix |
| Nov 15, 2010 9:06 am | Chris_McElligottPark | Assigned To | => Chris_McElligottPark |
| Nov 15, 2010 9:26 am | HitmanN | Note Added: 0003535 | |
| Nov 15, 2010 9:41 am | Chris_McElligottPark | Note Added: 0003539 | |
| Nov 15, 2010 9:46 am | Heavens | Note Added: 0003540 | |
| Nov 15, 2010 9:52 am | HitmanN | Note Added: 0003541 | |
| Nov 15, 2010 10:28 am | Winter Born | Relationship added | related to 0001373 |
| Nov 15, 2010 11:21 am | KDR_11k | Note Added: 0003560 | |
| Nov 15, 2010 1:14 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Note Added: 0003600 | |
| Nov 15, 2010 8:01 pm | wyvern83 | Note Added: 0003675 | |
| Nov 15, 2010 8:02 pm | wyvern83 | Note Edited: 0003675 | |
| Nov 15, 2010 8:17 pm | Vinraith | Note Added: 0003676 | |
| Nov 15, 2010 8:23 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Note Added: 0003677 | |
| Nov 15, 2010 8:50 pm | wyvern83 | Note Added: 0003680 | |
| Nov 15, 2010 8:54 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Note Added: 0003681 | |
| Jan 3, 2011 11:45 am | Chris_McElligottPark | Status | resolved => closed |
| Apr 14, 2014 9:28 am | Chris_McElligottPark | Category | Gameplay - General Complaint => Gameplay Issue |
