View Issue Details
| ID | Project | Category | Date Submitted | Last Update | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 0015190 | The Last Federation | Balance Issue | May 15, 2014 6:15 pm | May 29, 2014 8:50 am | |
| Reporter | Zulgaines | Assigned To | Chris_McElligottPark | ||
| Status | resolved | Resolution | fixed | ||
| Product Version | 1.019 (Solar Wind) | ||||
| Fixed in Version | 1.023 (Uprisings) | ||||
| Summary | 0015190: Federation costs intended? | ||||
| Description | Someone, someone, Peltian. This is my federation, every game. Every single game. Well, there's really no reason for me to bother with anyone else is there? It's not worth the investment required after the federation is formed. Example, I got the Andor and Skylaxians to form the federation and then brought the Peltians into it via proxy votes. Now I could... Grind and dump 90,000 credits into bringing the Acutians into the federation. Grind and dump 165,000 credits into bringing the Boarine into the federation. Grind and dump 165,000 credits into bringing the Evuks into the federation. Grind and dump 400,000(!) credits into bringing the Thoraxians into the federation. Grind and dump the 30,000 Leverage(!) required to bring the Burlust into the federation. Or I could just win the game in a few years by letting my federation go to war with the rest of them with my support. | ||||
| Tags | No tags attached. | ||||
| Internal Weight | New | ||||
| related to | 0015213 | resolved | Chris_McElligottPark | New mechanic for "join existing Federation" |
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Also Someone, someone, is actually someone NOT Burlust and Someone NOT Thoraxian in my experiences. I got an every race, no planet swap federation once, but that was back when there were attitude buildings, the goons were square, the goon sped dispatches were giving credits (often more than the cost of the goons) and I started the game with all but one of the science technologies (though I had the last one 10 months later)... As a handicap, the stations didn't work at the time, and spreadshot was nerfed... :) |
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The game's too simple. Having high Influence and Credit requirements doesn't really make the game difficult on its own. It forces you into lots of highly repetitive fights as you grind money, and to pass a lot of time to grind influence. I suppose bad things might happen while you do this, but you've already formed the Federation so it's *highly* unlikely you're at risk for losing at this stage. All that might happen is a war will start and you won't pause quickly enough to go stop it at an affordable price. There are ways to fix this, but they're probably expansion territory for practical reasons. It's a shame though, as the game's strategy is its big selling point and just doesn't run very deep. I like how the first steps were made a while back to lower these requirements in certain situations. These situations don't crop up on their own often, though, and are difficult/impossible to manufacture (except for "under overwhelming attack" which is only hard [read: impossible] to arrange when there is only one race left out of the Federation). |
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30000 leverage is (without the easy duel leverage) 50k credits with bribe items from black market. It's not much at all. The problem is now that goons don't contribute to credits and they're not affected by your research (one month instead of 7 per scientist is huge) that credits are much harder to obtain but the prices have stayed the same. |
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The price to bring a race into the federation may vary from cheap to unafordable. It depend of many factors that we don't kwnow very well. It may depend of the races already in the federation, of the attitude of the race we want to invite toward the race already in the federation, the influence toward Hydral, the influence toward the friend of the friends of the race we want to invite... I've seen the price to invite a single race in the federation in a single game vary from around 100K to 5000k. The thing that is needed is for us to know better the mechanisms that determine this cost. Then use theses mechanisms ingame instead of just grinding credits. |
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Basically what I do is just wait until 3090 and time travel tech is unlocked, then spend tons of money on scientists to research it. Then you have 1 million base credits and can recruit the rest into the federation pretty easily using all that cash. To pass the time until 3090 I normally just build armadas on planets that are losing wars so that they don't actually die until I can recruit them. |
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I agree that there's not many ways to earn credit beyond combat right now, and that this should be addressed. However, as a work-around for the moment you can take advantage of Build Outpost; with both Construction techs and at least one Manufacturing outpost this gives 400-500 Credit/mo. And the more outposts you have, the better it is! |
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I think some people are mixing up difficulty and challenge with grinding and cheesing. I don't mean that in a rude way or anything. Just that stalling the game out a good 50 years beyond what it'd take me to beat or finding the most exploitable way to stack credits isn't really my idea of balanced, fun, and engaging. Progenitus does make a good point, the Burlust aren't as bad as they seemed. But 30,000 in comparison to the gain from duels and the resulting chaos does feel a bit off still. Credits are the life blood of making things happen, yet they're probably the most blurry aspect of the game when it comes to how to effectively spend your time gaining them. My real problem with credits would have to be how you can spend 40 months working on something with minimal benefit only to make the same amount of money you would in a single combat mission that lasted less than a few solar days. |
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More (peaceful) ways to earn a (significant) amount credits would be a good start, I guess... |
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Also: Skylaxian Convincing is a *lot* cheaper than inviting a race directly (like 10k or so usually), and it completely bypasses the influence requirements. The attitude requirement is a lot easier to farm just by spamming attitude buildings (once you have the Construction techs and a couple of manufacturing outposts). You can also spam Laud Other Race if you have some spare influence on races already in the Federation. |
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* The Andor and Skylaxian credit costs to bring other races into the Federation are now far lower (10x lower for Skylaxians, 2x lower for Andors). |
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* The cost of getting races to directly join an existing federation has dropped 10x, but they now must have at least 100 average mutual attitude to and from the existing federation races. ** Though actually the cost for Peltians has tripled. ** ALL of the Acutian industries now have an option for joining an existing federation, although the costs vary by industry still. |
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* While the federation controls at least half the solar system (there are 4 or fewer non-federation planets left), then any non-warlike non-federation races will no longer consider each other valid targets for attacking. ** Warlike races are the Burlusts and the Thoraxians. So they will still war with each other and anyone else, and anyone else will war with them. ** But what this means is even if the Peltians and the Evucks hate one another, once the Federation gets too strong the Peltians and Evucks will stop attacking each other if they are not in the federation, and will instead focus their attention on the federation or on defending themselves, whichever is more prudent. ** This is different from them outright forming an alliance, because it doesn't make it so that you have to kill some of them to get them out of it. ** Races that are part of different alliances will even follow these rules, so long as neither is in the federation. ** Basically, it keeps the usual infighting from helping you snowball in the late game; your races are now working together, and the opposition realizes that they have to do the same. Except for the too-aggressive ones, the Burlusts and Thoraxians. |
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* The order in which you induct races into the federation is no longer so simple. NON-federation races will all respond by building one "scared of federation" building on each of their planets, per federation planet. ** Aka, if there are 3 federation planets, and the Acutians have two planets, then the Acutians will build 3 Acutian War Factories on each of their two planets. ** These new "scared of federation" buildings provide both a counterpoint to the federation's growing power, and an incentive. *** On the one hand, obvioulsy it makes it harder to just obliterate these races militarily as the federation gets stronger. *** However, if you can get these races to join the federation, then they will bring their existing stock of these buildings with them, thus making the federation even stronger. So by, for instance, waiting for a non-federation race to get suitably freaked out and built up, and then inviting them into the federation, you can make the federation extra strong. But by doing that, you risk them using that power to harm the federation in the meantime. *** For all of these buildings, if the race in question loses their planet, then their last act is destroying these buildings so that nobody else can use them. ** These are the buildings: *** Acutian War Factory **** 1.5x ship construction speed multiplier at local planet, 1.3x universal ground combat multiplier. *** Andor Assembly Line **** 1.2x ship construction speed multiplier at local planet, 3x citzen assembly rate at local planet. *** Boarine Foundry **** 1.1x ship construction speed multiplier at local planet, 1.4x universal armada power and in-combat ship attack multipliers. *** Burlust War Incubator **** 4x local birth rate, 1.2x universal ground combat multiplier, 1.2x universal armada power and in-combat ship attack multipliers. *** Evuck Crystal City **** 10x local ground combat multiplier, and 10x local protection from orbital bombing. *** Peltian Super Breeder **** 50x local birth rate (holy cow), 1.1x ship construction speed multiplier at local planet, 1.1x local ground combat multiplier. *** Thoraxian Deep Tunnels **** 1.1x local ground combat multiplier, and 25x local protection from orbital bombing *** Skylaxian Armory **** 1.7x universal ground combat multiplier, 1.4x universal armada power and in-combat ship attack multipliers. |
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Those look like pretty off-the-wall bonuses o_O |
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* Previously, the influence requirements for pressuring races to join the federation due to desperation were erroneously high. * All of the races except for the Thoraxians and Burlusts now have a new way of joining the federation: Join Federation When Militarily Supreme. ** If this race has at least 10,000 effective space power, and 10x higher effective space power than any other race, then they will be willing to enter the federation on much easier terms than usual. ** The idea here, thematically, is that they are willing to join because they think they can then exert a controlling interest in the federation. ** Game-mechanics-wise, the idea is that this encourages a form of brinkmanship with the non-super-warlike races, where you either weaken federation races or else strength a non-federation race in order to get them in this way. ** It also can create fortuitous "oh hey, practically free race into the federation!" situations, which is of course welcome when it does (rarely) happen. |
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One way or another, the current issue is solved. If there winds up being more to discuss, I'd prefer a new issue to reopening this one. "Those look like pretty off-the-wall bonuses o_O" I'm not sure what you mean by off the wall -- generally that means random. In this particular case they've been thought through quite well, in terms of what sort of characteristics I want each race to have if they are left out of the federation for too long. It's not just a matter of what the specific direct bonuses here are, but how they interact with the rest of the racial characteristics. |
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Oh the characteristics the bonuses apply to are good, it's just the numbers seem rather high. Start a two-planet federation and suddenly the Acutians are producing ships more than twice as fast and the Skylaxian ones are twice as strong @_@ But as always, I'll have to actually play with it before I can say anything for sure. |
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Ah, I gotcha. Yeah, it's a matter of trying to find a right balance, and generally I go big and then dial it back as needed. |
| Date Modified | Username | Field | Change |
|---|---|---|---|
| May 15, 2014 6:15 pm | Zulgaines | New Issue | |
| May 15, 2014 6:16 pm | Zulgaines | Description Updated | |
| May 15, 2014 9:43 pm | Drak | Note Added: 0038128 | |
| May 15, 2014 9:46 pm | Drak | Note Edited: 0038128 | |
| May 15, 2014 9:48 pm | Drak | Note Edited: 0038128 | |
| May 15, 2014 11:30 pm | GC13 | Note Added: 0038131 | |
| May 16, 2014 12:55 am | Progenitus | Note Added: 0038132 | |
| May 16, 2014 4:35 am | Poulpe | Note Added: 0038134 | |
| May 16, 2014 4:40 am | Poulpe | Note Edited: 0038134 | |
| May 16, 2014 8:18 am | worldstone | Note Added: 0038136 | |
| May 16, 2014 8:30 am | Ragwortshire | Note Added: 0038137 | |
| May 16, 2014 9:11 am | Zulgaines | Note Added: 0038138 | |
| May 16, 2014 9:11 am | Zulgaines | Note Edited: 0038138 | |
| May 16, 2014 9:12 am | Zulgaines | Note Edited: 0038138 | |
| May 16, 2014 9:13 am | Zulgaines | Note Edited: 0038138 | |
| May 16, 2014 9:15 am | Zulgaines | Note Edited: 0038138 | |
| May 16, 2014 9:18 am | Zulgaines | Note Edited: 0038138 | |
| May 16, 2014 9:32 am | nas1m | Note Added: 0038141 | |
| May 17, 2014 2:44 am | Ragwortshire | Note Added: 0038155 | |
| May 17, 2014 7:09 am | Ragwortshire | Relationship added | related to 0015213 |
| May 27, 2014 2:42 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Note Added: 0038350 | |
| May 27, 2014 3:05 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Note Added: 0038351 | |
| May 27, 2014 3:05 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Assigned To | => Chris_McElligottPark |
| May 27, 2014 3:05 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Status | new => feedback |
| May 27, 2014 4:51 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Note Added: 0038352 | |
| May 28, 2014 10:14 am | Chris_McElligottPark | Note Added: 0038361 | |
| May 28, 2014 10:31 am | Histidine | Note Added: 0038362 | |
| May 28, 2014 11:16 am | Chris_McElligottPark | Internal Weight | => New |
| May 28, 2014 11:16 am | Chris_McElligottPark | Note Added: 0038363 | |
| May 28, 2014 11:16 am | Chris_McElligottPark | Status | feedback => resolved |
| May 28, 2014 11:16 am | Chris_McElligottPark | Fixed in Version | => 1.023 (Uprisings) |
| May 28, 2014 11:16 am | Chris_McElligottPark | Resolution | open => fixed |
| May 28, 2014 11:18 am | Chris_McElligottPark | Note Added: 0038364 | |
| May 28, 2014 11:37 pm | Histidine | Note Added: 0038372 | |
| May 29, 2014 8:50 am | Chris_McElligottPark | Note Added: 0038376 |
