View Issue Details
| ID | Project | Category | Date Submitted | Last Update | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 0015298 | AI War 1 / Classic | Suggestion - Balance Tweaks | May 24, 2014 11:24 pm | May 31, 2014 10:50 pm | |
| Reporter | Dazio | Assigned To | |||
| Status | new | Resolution | open | ||
| Product Version | 7.030 | ||||
| Summary | 0015298: Zenith Space-Time manipulator tweaks (My highway is the slow way right now) | ||||
| Description | I am in a single-HW base game (all expansions installed, but all minor factions and AI plots are disabled). Due to the galaxy I've ended up with, my empire is in one long strung out line so I was looking at speeding up moving my fleets around. In addition, there is a Mk II AI system with nothing in it that I neutered that I have to cross to go between the sides of my empire. Because I prefer Military over Logistics stations and the neutered AI system where I can't build a command station, this setup seemed perfect for the Space-Time manipulator. So I go ahead and try to setup a space-time highway and it has some issues. 1) Each Manipulator only provides a flat boost of 20 speed. So a fighter only goes from 84 to 104 speed, not exactly huge. 2) Energy costs of 20,000 per manipulator is quite a lot. To get a meaningful effect of a 100 speed boost in a system requires 100,000 energy. I'm trying to setup this up in multiple systems to make a highway and I'm currently stuck at only one or two manipulators per system, even with a couple of Matter Converters running. 3) Knowledge cost of 1,750 to unlock. Almost half the cost of the Logistics Mk II for a lot less then half the effect. 4) Cap of 20. A highway is multiple systems, if I can get this setup as I want I'm looking at 6 systems. That's only a speed boost of 60 or 80 depending on which systems I give 3 or 4 manipulators as I only have 20 to split up. So, in a 3 manipulator system, a fighter goes from 84 to 144 speed. Compared to a Mk I logistics station which provides a 200% speed boost, that fighter would be going 256 speed. Now, I can build Manipulators in AI systems or in player systems with other command station types which is their advantage over Logistics stations, but all in all they seem rather underpowered. So, suggested tweaks (each tweak is a stand along suggestion): 1) Boost the cap, probably with an energy cost reduction also. I'd rather see a higher ship cap with a lower speed boost then a lower cap with a higher speed boost. This would allow me to choose a shorter, faster highway or a longer, slower highway. Knowledge probably would not change. 2) Reduce Knowledge cost. The only direct comparison in the benefit they provide is the Logistics command station and they fare poorly when compared like that. They can be built without taking up the command station slot though so they have their niche. I'd like to see the K cost dropped to at least 1,000, although 750 (or even 500) might not be out of line. They are very situational after all. 3) Boost the speed bonus significantly, but apply a 1 per system cap. At a boost of only 20 per manipulator I'm looking to build multiple in each system along my highway. If increasing the cap as per # 1 would be overpowered in multi-HW games with higher caps, give the Manipulator a 100 or 150 speed bonus but apply a cap of one per system using the same logic as the Mini-Fortress. Overall, the Space-Time Manipulator is very situational. It is only really useful when you don't want to use logistics stations (for me, that's border worlds), or you want a speed boost crossing a neutered AI system. However, it is rather underwhelming at doing that at the moment so lets give it a boost to make it useful. D. | ||||
| Tags | No tags attached. | ||||
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You forget the 100% speed boost from your other command stations. So a fighter will fly through every single but one of the systems (the neutered one) with 84*2+20=188 or (84+20)*2=208, depending on the order in which the bonuses are applied. |
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The powerful thing about them is that their flat bonus gets multiplied by command stations aswell (a fighter would be (84+20)*2=208 speed), so they're especially good when used ON TOP of logistics stations. My current setup has a highway of almost 20 hops and things are arriving faster at my frontline than they would with warpgates (even though there is one gravity drill system inbetween), though this is only possible because I have multiple homeworlds (way too low cap otherwise). Sadly growing the empire any larger will mean that won't be possible anymore... I agree that the cap on them definitely needs to go up. Have it scale with galaxy size so we can always create viable highways (you get spacetime manipulators equal to your galaxy's size per player, or half your galaxy's size per player or something). This would be an absolutely necessary change in my opinion. The "higher boost but one per system" would of course also be a possible solution, though it would make them very static and remove a tiny bit of freedom one had (for example they did work pretty well stacked up in a system with viral shredders for defenses to cover up their slowness). Then afterwards, regardless of which of the two options would be chosen, the manipulators should EITHER cost less science to unlock OR cost less energy to run, as both are currently a little bit too high (lowering both would make them too good of a deal, though). |
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They definitely need either a higher cap and lower energy cost or lower knowledge expenditure and greater boost. |
| Date Modified | Username | Field | Change |
|---|---|---|---|
| May 24, 2014 11:24 pm | Dazio | New Issue | |
| May 24, 2014 11:29 pm | Dazio | Description Updated | |
| May 25, 2014 5:38 am | giftgruen | Note Added: 0038333 | |
| May 25, 2014 7:44 am | Shoat | Note Added: 0038334 | |
| May 25, 2014 7:45 am | Shoat | Note Edited: 0038334 | |
| May 25, 2014 7:46 am | Shoat | Note Edited: 0038334 | |
| May 31, 2014 10:50 pm | Winge | Note Added: 0038406 |
