View Issue Details
| ID | Project | Category | Date Submitted | Last Update | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 0001607 | AI War 1 / Classic | Balance Issue | Nov 25, 2010 4:00 am | Dec 1, 2010 12:50 pm | |
| Reporter | killerk | Assigned To | keith.lamothe | ||
| Status | resolved | Resolution | fixed | ||
| Product Version | 4.041 | ||||
| Summary | 0001607: Raid starship have way too much armor | ||||
| Description | Mark I Raid starships have 90k armor and high damage against command, compared to other starship which have only 2-3k armor. Almost impossible to kill with mark I turrents or units, since it moves so fast, outrunning even missiles and the ridiculous armor protects it from damage. I read the updates and the armor was increase 3x.. i don't remember raid starship even having close to 10k armor in previous versions. Add that with high difficultly ai that sends mark II or III raider at the start with regularity and it's really hard unless you devote force yourself to research to anti-raid turrets. Suggest armor nerf and adding radar dampening to compensate, making it a fragile, but fast and powerful ship | ||||
| Tags | No tags attached. | ||||
| Internal Weight | |||||
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Raid starships used to have 10x more health and 10x less armour (so 3000), and this latest huge buff to them seems out of place to me, considering how much the AI likes to send them in the first 15 or so minutes of the game, either causing me to lose the game alltogether or to lose all my pods/cities. |
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I haven't played with this version yet, but I noticed that the Heavy Beam Turrets also got buffed recently. It's a 2k unlock at start, and they've usually been able to take care of errand Raid SS's and Leeches pretty easily if well-placed. |
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Yeah... Earlier its 30k armor could at least be pierced by anti-armor ships. Now there's no readily available counter against them. Personally I'd rather see them fully reverted back to their low-armor high-health state. |
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I think the Raid needed this buff but evidently its harder to deal with as a result. Having two versions of the Raid like we do for golems now might be a good solution for this. |
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I'll have to see this for myself in-game; however, honestly, they were absolutely useless on the player side as they were paper-thin and would have no chance in serving their purpose because their survivability was non-existent. |
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The bonuses vs command grade and turrets could be flipped too so it can't just pop all your command centery stuff due to firing through force fields. Or remove its tractor beam immunity. Since the AI doesn't really use tractor turrets anymore this isn't too big a deal for the player raid starships to have removed. Or remove its ability to fire through force fields. Really the problem isn't the armor itself per se, it's the armor + FF immunity + bonus vs command grade + tractor immunity making it a semi-random game ender at times. Spec Ops guardians take forever to kill too, but they can't blow up your HW command center in 12 seconds through the force field by themselves. The human player can't even do it back because the AI guard posts are all not command grade, so this change is pretty much just something that randomly game overs players in games. 11k armor core bombers are hard enough to beat up with mk 3 ships because of their armor, and this is 90k on an ultralight. Mk 3 frigates only do 30k damage/shot per 8 seconds with their 10x ultralight multiplier, and they have even less raw dps vs raid starships than fighters vs bombers. |
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Their bonus against command grade is useful though when you need it. AI Warp Gates are command-grade as are AI Command Centers for example. Its a must have bonus for players. |
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They have 90k armor, 800k hp and 50k damage/shot at mk1. Warp gates have 40k hp. Even without a bonus vs command grade, the mk1 raid starship can manage, with it's 158 speed, to zip up to a warp gate and shoot it once to kill it. |
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How viable are they for raiding Eyes? That's the important question IMO. |
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the old missile immune version was more balanced tbh. |
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Eyes are ultra-heavy armor type. Even if you removed the command grade bonus (or made it a penalty) that wouldn't effect eyes. |
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I agree with deadlyshoe, the missle immune version made sense- it wasnt annhilated by fortresses like every other starship, so could deepstrike. the superarmoured version is horribly unkillable unless you unlock ships specifically to deal with it |
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Fragile Raids aren't very usable, radar jamming might make up for it but really I think it will come down to having two versions. |
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I've seen raid starships sometimes disappear from... something. I tried to use them against a mid-tier planet, and something just 1-2HKOs them, which was largely discouraging. I really don't know what to say, anymore. They're definitely more of an annoyance to human players, but their effectiveness as a player ship is poor. |
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I very much agree. Currently the AI have way bigger damage potential than players, meaning the heavilly-armored raid starship is extremely lopsided. I just had a lone Mk. II raid starship run straight through my perimiter composed of about 700 mixed ships (full caps of triangle ships on normal shipcap) and full caps of missile, MLRS, laser and basic turrets, and going straight for my homeworld and killed it in 4 shots. The only defense against raid starships currently is luck, more or less. |
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Do gravity turrets not slow them down? Do siege starships not punch through the armor? Not saying they're balanced as-is, but I'm confused by the lack of mention unless I missed it or those don't work. |
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In my case, the raid starship needed four shots to kill my home station. That means a single volley from the siege starships, which was far from enough to kill it. As for grav turrets, I hadn't unlocked them, so I'm not sure if they would have been enough to halt the raiders long enough. |
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Siege starships' slow ammo projectiles take ages to reach the Raids, and by then the Raids have done their nasty deeds. Yes, grav turrets would slow them down, but doesn't that mean that grav turrets are becoming a necessary unlock when you want to defend against Raids? Them and/or heavy beam turrets. Unlocks shouldn't so readily be a requirement to defend against one basic starship type, I think. The default arsenal should have something to counter them effectively enough, and Sieges just usually aren't enough. |
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Ok, I've put a change in for 4.043 removing their bonus against command-grade. So that would change that last scenario from homeworld-death in 4 shots (9-12 seconds) to 16 shots (45-48 seconds) which is still blazing fast but at least more manageable. Asking Chris about a separate change that should help too. |
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Another question: is there a particular reason it would be terribad to remove immune-to-snipers from raid starships? |
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I don't see why that would be bad. It would just add more counters against Raids, allowing truly to block them at times. Most ships in the game can be defeated with several things, while Raids have required very specific tools so far. If player uses lots of snipers, it can be additional help against Raids. If the AI uses lots of snipers, the player can't always use Raids. Win-win, I think, as long as the Raids prove out to still be usable sometimes. |
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The "problem" is that it wouldn't help much, really. Snipers have no AP, meaning a single sniper turret would deal 360 damage. Against 800k, that means about 2000 shots, or 20 full volleys from sniper turrets. It'd help, sure, but it wouldn't do a whole lot. That in combination with sniper turrets getting enough AP though, and we'd be back in business. |
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I didn't ask if it would help much :) If you check the patch notes, there's already the addition of 100,000 armor piercing to all sniper units. |
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Though I need to back down on the bonus against UltraLight, I think, or 27 sniper turrets could one-salvo a raid I. |
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Ooh, sweet. In that case, it'd help immensely; a full volley from a cap of sniper turrets should take down a single Mk. I raid starship, at least. |
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Hmm. My sniper turrets don't have any bonus against ultra-light... EDIT: Sniper _ships_ do, though. |
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When I refer to "patch notes" I mean this: http://arcengames.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=AI_War_-_Current_Post-4.000_Beta |
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Yeah, I know. Oh, and you added the ultra-light bonus as well as AP. D'oh, my bad. |
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Yea, but I'm backing out the ultra-light bonus, at least for now, as I don't want to make it _too_ easy to just insta-gib raid starships, since they now also take longer to kill command-grade stuff. |
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I'm going to go ahead and call this one resolved, since sniper turrets are unlocked from the start and should provide an effective counter to lone raid starships now. Also, the raids will take 4 times as long as before to kill a home command station, which should provide more time for things like sieges to get some licks in (by my math, a siege mkI should be able to kill a raid mkI in 8 shots; not enough to defend the home command by itself but it helps). |
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I should add that I just changed the maximum damage percent reduction for armor from 95% to 80%, and increased the health of some of the high-armor units to compensate. Raids got a straight 2x to health, but since they now take roughly 4x as much damage from shots less than 90k strong that's maybe not even enough. I guess we'll see how all this comes out in the wash :) |
| Date Modified | Username | Field | Change |
|---|---|---|---|
| Nov 25, 2010 4:00 am | killerk | New Issue | |
| Nov 25, 2010 4:30 am | amonchakad | Note Added: 0004484 | |
| Nov 25, 2010 7:28 am | HitmanN | Note Added: 0004487 | |
| Nov 25, 2010 7:29 am | HitmanN | Note Edited: 0004487 | |
| Nov 25, 2010 11:53 am | Toll | Note Added: 0004497 | |
| Nov 25, 2010 12:32 pm | wyvern83 | Note Added: 0004498 | |
| Nov 25, 2010 1:14 pm | killerk | Description Updated | |
| Nov 25, 2010 1:15 pm | killerk | Description Updated | |
| Nov 25, 2010 1:22 pm | Spikey00 | Note Added: 0004504 | |
| Nov 25, 2010 1:28 pm | killerk | Description Updated | |
| Nov 25, 2010 1:31 pm | Suzera | Note Added: 0004505 | |
| Nov 25, 2010 2:06 pm | wyvern83 | Note Added: 0004508 | |
| Nov 25, 2010 2:39 pm | Suzera | Note Added: 0004514 | |
| Nov 25, 2010 4:47 pm | KDR_11k | Note Added: 0004517 | |
| Nov 25, 2010 4:50 pm | TheDeadlyShoe | Note Added: 0004518 | |
| Nov 25, 2010 4:52 pm | TheDeadlyShoe | Note Edited: 0004518 | |
| Nov 25, 2010 4:53 pm | TheDeadlyShoe | Note Edited: 0004518 | |
| Nov 25, 2010 4:54 pm | TheDeadlyShoe | Note Edited: 0004518 | |
| Nov 25, 2010 5:21 pm | Suzera | Note Added: 0004519 | |
| Nov 25, 2010 5:56 pm | mr_lolz | Note Added: 0004522 | |
| Nov 30, 2010 10:01 pm | wyvern83 | Note Added: 0004713 | |
| Nov 30, 2010 11:21 pm | Spikey00 | Note Added: 0004717 | |
| Dec 1, 2010 8:07 am | Toll | Note Added: 0004723 | |
| Dec 1, 2010 8:11 am | keith.lamothe | Note Added: 0004724 | |
| Dec 1, 2010 8:19 am | Toll | Note Added: 0004725 | |
| Dec 1, 2010 8:34 am | HitmanN | Note Added: 0004726 | |
| Dec 1, 2010 8:38 am | keith.lamothe | Note Added: 0004727 | |
| Dec 1, 2010 8:38 am | keith.lamothe | Assigned To | => keith.lamothe |
| Dec 1, 2010 8:38 am | keith.lamothe | Status | new => feedback |
| Dec 1, 2010 8:39 am | keith.lamothe | Note Edited: 0004727 | |
| Dec 1, 2010 8:49 am | keith.lamothe | Note Added: 0004730 | |
| Dec 1, 2010 9:23 am | HitmanN | Note Added: 0004731 | |
| Dec 1, 2010 9:34 am | Toll | Note Added: 0004732 | |
| Dec 1, 2010 9:38 am | keith.lamothe | Note Added: 0004735 | |
| Dec 1, 2010 9:40 am | keith.lamothe | Note Added: 0004736 | |
| Dec 1, 2010 9:40 am | Toll | Note Added: 0004737 | |
| Dec 1, 2010 9:41 am | Toll | Note Added: 0004738 | |
| Dec 1, 2010 9:42 am | Toll | Note Edited: 0004738 | |
| Dec 1, 2010 9:43 am | keith.lamothe | Note Added: 0004739 | |
| Dec 1, 2010 9:44 am | Toll | Note Added: 0004740 | |
| Dec 1, 2010 9:48 am | keith.lamothe | Note Added: 0004741 | |
| Dec 1, 2010 10:41 am | keith.lamothe | Note Added: 0004750 | |
| Dec 1, 2010 10:41 am | keith.lamothe | Status | feedback => resolved |
| Dec 1, 2010 10:41 am | keith.lamothe | Resolution | open => fixed |
| Dec 1, 2010 12:50 pm | keith.lamothe | Note Added: 0004778 | |
| Apr 14, 2014 9:29 am | Chris_McElligottPark | Category | Gameplay - Balance Issue => Balance Issue |
