View Issue Details
| ID | Project | Category | Date Submitted | Last Update | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 0016913 | Stars Beyond Reach | Suggestion | May 29, 2015 2:53 am | Jun 1, 2015 2:34 pm | |
| Reporter | ptarth | Assigned To | Chris_McElligottPark | ||
| Status | resolved | Resolution | fixed | ||
| Product Version | 0.854 | ||||
| Fixed in Version | 0.870 (Yellowshirts and the Giant Revision) | ||||
| Summary | 0016913: Exploration and Expansion Enhancement | ||||
| Description | Misery made a thread here: http://www.arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,17587.0.html Wherein he gives his thoughts on early gameplay. The general consensus of him and many others commenting on the thread is that the early game is lacking immediacy. I present a 3 part plan. Here is part 3. Exploration and Expansion Enhancement By making the terrain matter, we can get the player to expand outwards and then be attacked by the AI Races and AI Monsters. New Buildings Fish Boat - Produce X units of food when placed on water. Grants 17% fishing adjacency bonus to adjacent fishing boats. Grants 17% Crown bonus to adjacent Fishing Harvest Center. Fishing Harvest Center - Produce Y Crowns. Grants adjacent fishing boats 25% food production. Mining Rig - Produce X Crowns. When placed on rugged terrain +25% income. When placed on mountain terrain +50% income. Grants 17% Income increase to adjacent Mining Center. Grants 17% income increase to adjacent mining rigs. Mining Center - Produces Y Crowns. Grants 25% Crown bonus to adjacent Factories. The mine extractor can be stolen here and use the advanced extractor for all resource extraction. Lumber Camp - Produces Y Crowns. Can only be placed on Forest or Jungle. If terrain is changed to nonForest/Jungle, income drops to 0 or build self-destructs. Grants 17% income increase to adjacent Lumber Mill. Grants 17% income increase to adjacent Lumber Camps. Lumber Mill - Produces Z Crowns. Grants 17% increase to adjacent Lumber Camps. Grant 17% income increase to adjacent Factories. Additional Changes Drop income from banks and other sources. Note: Exact names & values were off the top of my head and have very little reason behind them. Results Terrain now matters. Factories suddenly become very good economic producers. Factories crown income is boosted by resource produces which in turn are boosted by the raw resource buildings. As a freebie we also now have some reason for having ocean holdings. (We'd like to have some house boats and restaurant boats, but that is a larger project.) Because terrain matters, we now have motivation to scout and spread out. Because we spread out we get attacked. | ||||
| Tags | No tags attached. | ||||
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Just a quick thought, for Lumber Camps maybe negative adjacency with other buildings bonus or positive one with forest itself might make sense? So that ideally they'd be surrounded by forest as much as possible(and increase the total area we want to use). |
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I made some comments/suggestions for expanding on the idea on the forums. Repeated here for convenience: So in a nutshell: Use the actual terrain for (raw) resources to facilitate expansion/exploration? Not a bad idea - at all. As an extension raw resource gathering could be made in a way that "exhausts" e.g. forest tiles after a while, maybe even leading to declining rewards over time in the meantime. Once the tile is exhausted the lumber camp could automatically be destroyed/disassembled and the respective made in grass/wasteland - possibly until it regrows (would add a changing element to the appearance of the world). This again could be interesting - I think there are already systems in place to do something similar with regard to ice/jungle due to climatic changes. OT: Might do the game some good to lower the thresholds for actually changing the landscape based on the current climate - might be interesting/engaging to see the world change more rapidly around the player (and potentially force player actions to adapt)... |
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My original concept was to have a building count adjacent terrain of the 'correct' type and to base income off of that. I can still see that being okay, but I like the interactivity of the adjacency bonus. Plus by keeping everything using the adjacency bonus we keep focusing on a single underlying mechanic. I don't like the terrain modification suggestions, because it adds a massive amount of new code and upkeep change. The proposed changes just adds a few buildings graphics and entries for the buildings, but no new mechanics. |
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Just to be clear, I was just talking about upping the pace of the existing mechanic with regard to changing landscapes - not adding anything new. What do you think about the consumable terrain part? That too could cope with existing tiles... |
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I like the ideas here, a lot of them. One thing to note: I know that the start of the game lacks immediacy, and the AIs are not interacting with you much at all. So I totally get Misery's complaints, and that's pretty much a matter of "those bits are in the process of being heavily revised." I'm definitely agreed on those points. |
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Look what you all started. ;) http://arcengames.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=Stars_Beyond_Reach_Beta_Release_Notes#The_Great_Commercial.2FIndustrial_Upheaval It bears mentioning that one of my goals for the game was always for it to be interesting even if the AIs are not there, so clearly it's been failing in that. With these changes that are coming up, which are along the lines from what you're suggesting above, this really takes it to a new level in building cities. I really am loving these ideas. I had been going to kill those buildings anyhow for a variety of reasons, so being able to repurpose the various ones to the new functions is really good. The ideas here for their new functions are much better than the ones I initially had myself! :) |
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So many items getting knocked off my list. I guess the only thing left is the turn order crusade. |
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And I'm cool with that crusade, too. I think we have the same goal there, but I am not yet understanding what precisely you're saying. My own personal list is getting darn short now too, with the big looming remaining thing being diplomacy. But I've got a plan for that, so I'm feeling pretty good about now. |
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=== The Great Commercial/Industrial Upheaval === * Thanks to Misery, ptarth, Enrymion, nas1m, and tadrinth for inspiring this line of thinking. * All resources that were previously gathered by advanced or regular mines are now gathered by what are now just called "deep mines." ** All animal resources are now gathered by Harvesters (no terrariums, fisheries, etc). *** The optimize terrarium domes political deal now is for harvesters instead. ** All plant resources are now gathered by extraction facilities. ** This is SUPER nice, because now you don't have so darn many types of resource gatherers to try to keep track of. Even for Chris, that could get incredibly annoying and confusing previously. * Since Industry and Commercial are so tied together now in terms of two different ways of making money, the Commercial section has been moved up on the left sidebar to be right under industrial. * The income types were previously Government, Retail, Banking, and Manufacturing. In the new scheme of things this was pretty confusing, so it is now Government, Commerce, Banking, and Industry. ==== What Went Away ==== * There is now a Mine building, which is what used to be the regular mine. * The fishery has been repurposed and no longer gathers resources. * There is now a new Fishing Wharf building, which was previously the advanced ocean mine. * The Industrial Teleporter has been removed, and a new Molecular Refinery has been added in its place. * The Thought Conditioning Device has been removed, and a new Commercial Offices building has been added in its place. * The Large Battery Array has been removed, and a new Lumber Mill building has been added in its place. * The Small Battery Array Device has been removed, and a new Logging Camp building has been added in its place. ==== What Is New ==== * Microwave Electrical Towers have been redefined once again, and are now back to being a power building rather than an industrial one. These now have the same function that large battery arrays used to. * (Obviously a ton more than this is coming before we release this next update!) ===== Commercial ===== * Shopping Mall crown production has been cut from 1200 to 600. Bank from 2500 to 1000. Stock Exchange from 5000 to 3000. Fighting arena from 2000 to 1400. ** Banks can now only be built for every 1200 citizens instead of every 600. Shopping malls can now only be built for every 2000 citizens rather than every 1000. ** The construction complexity of the banks has doubled from 6000 to 12000. This is still half what shopping malls are. ** Shopping malls now cost 15000 instead of 4800. * The new commercial offices building now provides 300 crown income, but is not affected by pollution much at all, and can have one built for every 800 citizens. ** The crimes of opportunity on these is also very low (1/6th that of shopping malls). ** These provide low commerce SP, but still higher than the bank (16 vs 9 at the bank, vs 48 at the shopping mall). ** These are staffed by 80 people each. ** These only take 150 power to run, so the same as the bank. ** Their health is 220, so a bit better than the 160 of the bank. ** These cost 4800, which is what shopping malls used to cost. ** Their construction complexity is only 6000, so quite low. * Shopping malls, banks, and office buildings now all provide a crowns boost to adjacent shopping malls. This effectively makes the shopping mall your crown jewel of your commercial districts. ** Thanks to Cinth for suggesting. ===== Industrial ===== * The crown cost of rural farms has been dropped from 9000 to 4000. ** Thanks to Enrymion for suggesting. * The cost of factories has gone up from 9000 to 18000. ** Their construction complexity is also up to 48000 instead of 9000, and they are now staffed by 177 instead of 120. ** Their health is also up to 600 from 480, and their crown generation is up to 900 from 600 (bear in mind these guys use an obscene amount of power). ** These no longer add any construction capacity at all. ** You are now limited to one of these per 2000 citizens, like the shopping mall on the commercial side. * Factories now provide a substantial boost to manufacturing crowns income on all adjacent buildings. This is a bit the reverse of shopping centers, making it so that factories increase outwards rather than other things increasing inwards toward it. The bonus here is also more substantial, which helps to offset its huge power cost (relative to the shopping mall). * There are now two separate categories of crops: agriculture and fishing. Most of the bonuses that apply to agriculture don't apply to fishing, as these are meant to be two different systems of generating food. * Fisheries now produce a small amount of crops, but this is not affected by the atmospheric quality at all, since you are catching fish rather than growing crops. ** They also provide manufacturing-style income of 150. ** Depending on the depth of water you are placing these on, you get a bonus of a certain amount to both crops and crowns: either 10% or 25% or no bonus. ** You can have one of these for each 800 people, and they take 10 people to staff. This is actually super dangerous if you are relying on these for food, because if their effectiveness drops thanks to being understaffed, your food drops as well. The pure food production buildings don't have this disadvantage, so it's something to consider. ** Fisheries give a huge penalty to one another when adjacent to one another from overfishing. ** Building description from the game: *** An excellent way to generate both some income and crops. *** Fishing can reap excellent bonuses from being in deep waters, and more importantly they can really buff up a fishing wharf even more. * Fishing Wharfs have been added to the game, producing a bit of money and a teeny bit of fishing-style crops. But these are sort of a reverse-bonus building, where fisheries really do a lot to help them out in a very substantial way. ** Building description from the game: *** A fishing wharf by itself is pretty unproductive. It produces very little in the way of food or crowns, so you're likely to overlook it as being pretty pointless. *** But! As a place to sell fish from adjacent fisheries, THAT's where the fishing wharf really shines. You can get quite a bit of income cranking out of these if you set things up right. * Mines are a new industrial building. ** Their description from the game: *** These mines can only be placed on spots that have a mining bonus of some sort -- typically a rocky, mountainous, or desert-like area. They also can't be packed closely together at all, so you want to plan each one carefully. *** Mines are extremely expensive and slow to build, particularly if you are building them on rich mining terrain such as mountains. But once built, they are powerhouses of income. *** The big limiters for these are planning their placement properly, gaining access to rough enough terrain with your districts, and having enough upfront capital to make these a worthwhile long-term investment. * Logging Camps are a new industrial building. ** Their description from the game: *** These camps can only be placed on wooded tiles -- dense jungles give increased yields. These camps also can't be packed too closely together, so you want to plan your layout of them as a group. *** Logging camps are cheap and quick to build, and provide a moderate amount of income depending on where you have constructed them. Constructing lumber mills to augment them makes them a lot more productive. * Lumber Mills are a new industrial building. ** Their description from the game: *** These mills can only be placed on wooded tiles -- dense jungles give increased yields. These produce income all on their own, but provide extra boosts when placed adjacent to lumber mills. *** Also consider putting your repair crews next to lumber mills, as the easy access to materials makes them twice as effective. * Some science changes in light of a few new goals here with molecular refineries being relevant without being OP: ** Explorer camps now only produce 1 science per turn, not 2. (This is actually unrelated and just needed to happen in general.) ** You can only make one science lab per 2000 citizens in spacious housing now, rather than 100. For linguistics it is now for every 1000 rather than every 100. *** Your population counts are expected to be a lot higher. *** Also, individual linguistics centers now product 80 points per turn rather than 40, so that you don't have to have so many of them. ** The Ansible now produces 360 linguistics in addition to the science it generates. (This is actually unrelated and is just a nice second purpose to the Ansible.) * Molecular Refineries are a new industrial building. ** These produce 4 science and 4 linguistics. ** Their description from the game: *** The pinnacle of materials science analysis. Super expensive and complicated to build, and takes a lot of people to run. Can only be placed on spots that have a mining bonus of some sort -- typically a rocky, mountainous, or desert-like area. *** On the one hand, this refinery is good simply for generating some income via mining, and it even provides healthy bonuses to adjacent mines. On its own, it generates a very paltry amount of direct science and linguistics points, but that's simply because so much of its space is dedicated to mining and machinery. *** Where this really shines is when science labs and linguistics research centers are built around it; you can then really pump out a ton of analysis. |
| Date Modified | Username | Field | Change |
|---|---|---|---|
| May 29, 2015 2:53 am | ptarth | New Issue | |
| May 29, 2015 3:04 am | Enrymion | Note Added: 0041381 | |
| May 29, 2015 3:04 am | Enrymion | Note Edited: 0041381 | |
| May 29, 2015 8:27 am | nas1m | Note Added: 0041386 | |
| May 29, 2015 12:32 pm | ptarth | Note Added: 0041391 | |
| May 29, 2015 1:28 pm | nas1m | Note Added: 0041394 | |
| May 29, 2015 1:30 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Note Added: 0041395 | |
| May 29, 2015 5:03 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Assigned To | => Chris_McElligottPark |
| May 29, 2015 5:03 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Status | new => assigned |
| May 29, 2015 5:04 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Note Added: 0041413 | |
| May 30, 2015 1:04 am | ptarth | Note Added: 0041427 | |
| May 30, 2015 10:01 am | Chris_McElligottPark | Note Added: 0041440 | |
| Jun 1, 2015 2:34 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Note Added: 0041522 | |
| Jun 1, 2015 2:34 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Status | assigned => resolved |
| Jun 1, 2015 2:34 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Fixed in Version | => 0.870 (Yellowshirts and the Giant Revision) |
| Jun 1, 2015 2:34 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Resolution | open => fixed |
