View Issue Details
| ID | Project | Category | Date Submitted | Last Update | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 0017078 | Stars Beyond Reach | Balance Issue | Jun 4, 2015 4:41 am | Jun 5, 2015 12:19 pm | |
| Reporter | kasnavada | Assigned To | keith.lamothe | ||
| Status | resolved | Resolution | fixed | ||
| Product Version | 0.871 (Wars of Aggression) | ||||
| Fixed in Version | 0.874 (Power and Linguistics) | ||||
| Summary | 0017078: Civic center and diplomacy rework => tie diplomacy to linguistics and expand linguistics | ||||
| Description | My feeling here is that should not be in the research tree in the first place. In my second game I really felt constrained and there was about no way I'd find out were it should be. I had to look on the forum to find this. Funnily, I stopped my game to make remarks when actually researching for "formal diplomacy" in said game. I'd propose: - tie the quantity of buildable civic centers to the "upgradable" lander level. - tie diplomacy possibilities to linguistics. Linguistics also need more possibilities. Currently it's a "single" building which is easy to overlook. Linguistic points should flow instead of being another research path. What I'm proposing is that : - encountering other nations gives some points toward getting their language. - any action involving them (like spying) on them should give linguistic points - The "basic" growth of linguistic should be a number of point per turn as soon as you've discovered them (limited to getting to level 1) - getting to level 1 linguistics should allow diplomatic building (international trade posts, combined research centers, embassies, burlust bars...) and the higher level, the more diverse buildings there. Those would also give linguistic points (again, limited to a max level). - having a trade relation or setting a diplomacy trade should give linguistic points. Basically you're getting the idea of where I want to go with this. Then I'm wondering if it's worth it to remove the "linguistic" generic building. PS : about buildings, it good be good if high level buildings given like this could give a "specific" race bonus, like "allying" with high level boarine give new diplomacy options or bonii, "allying" with neinzul might give access to some of their unique unit mechanics (from what I've seen). | ||||
| Tags | No tags attached. | ||||
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I like these ideas! If feasible in any way (and definitely after the AI and Planet have been made into properly trying to kill us), I would like to see this implemented. |
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Coming: -- Linguistic Research Centers to now target races like embassies do. --- First of all, the entire linguistics screen will go away. Blah. --- Also the need to select linguistics targets in a generalized sense. --- But when you have targeted a linguistic research center on a race, it will generate linguistics points for that race just like happens now. --- On the city grid, there should be a new “language skill” column on the far right. ---- Hovering over this will show the current language skill out of 5, and then the current “manipulation ability” out of 2 (manipulation ability is levels 6 and 7 of the overall language skill.” And then it will also show the proverb that would previously have been on the linguistics screen. |
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In the next version: * Linguistics generation changes. ** Spy Safehouses now generate 20 linguistics points (will be with the race they are targeting, soon). ** Molecular Refineries no longer generate any linguistics points. ** Embassies now generate 40 linguistics points (will be with the race they are targeting, soon). |
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This stuff actually plays really well into the diplomacy stuff I've been working on, so I'm really pleased about that. It's also something that is relatively quick to do and that has a clear design already, so that's good in that I can go ahead and get this on the list while I work on harder problems. Regarding civic centers and you feeling constrained, I'm not entirely sure on the issue there, but there are changes coming with that to give you more space and more ways to get more districts. |
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This stuff actually plays really well into the diplomacy stuff I've been working on, so I'm really pleased about that. It's also something that is relatively quick to do and that has a clear design already, so that's good in that I can go ahead and get this on the list while I work on harder problems. Thanks =) I try to =). Regarding civic centers and you feeling constrained, I'm not entirely sure on the issue there, but there are changes coming with that to give you more space and more ways to get more districts. A game is 500, or maybe 900 turns long, more or less (from what I got from the other forumers). During the 200 turns of my second game (since I did not unlock that research yet), the positions where I could build were the exact same. That took me 2 "playtime" hours. For 2 hours I could only build in the "teleporter" range of my lander. I eventually could "look" a bit forward (the scout action is kind of nice) and somewhat expanded my view but... basically my whole world where I'm doing my actions has been, for the first 2 hours, a small corner of the map which I can't move away from. It's probably doable to "grow" sooner by focusing research... but I don't feel like it should be the case. I mean, imagine civilization if we had to research cities in the medieval age before building a settler ? I have need to "claim" territory, to expand, to explore early. That's why I'm proposing to tie the availability of setting new civic center to the "lander" level (only way I know of getting larger land yet). But if you have changes coming to give more space to get districts and space, it's probably fine. I still think there should be some "early" way to get more space. Currently if feels very late. |
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Effectively do you want more districts, districts earlier in the game, or more area to build in per district? |
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It sounds like you want more districts earlier. But I am very confused. Did you not have Formalized Diplomacy, is basically what you are saying? So you didn't unlock Civic Centers until early on in? Because unless you had no government points coming at all, you should have had the ability to put down more civic centers (at least one!) pretty darn instantly. Well, after government level 2. I can understand a tutorial issue of not being able to get there soon enough, and that is a problem, yeah. It should not be gated to level 2, also, I think -- that's pretty clear now, based on what you are saying. But I think that overall it was a misunderstanding here, not a true balance thing. |
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I have all social at lvl 5 or 6 actually. I don't remember when I got the government points but it was a long time before turn 200. And... no I did not research that. Point is that was starting to become crippling to my gameplay, and really, really annoying on my impression of the game. I don't think giving "more" and "sooner" would have helped much on that impression. I had enough space. But, I couldn't move. I don't think it's a tutorial issue nor a balance issue. I rather think that it's a design issue. First: players are bound to miss it again if it's stated in a tutorial. What will those players do ? What do you think that their first impression is going to be ? Second: 4X equals "eXplore, eXpand, eXploit, and eXterminate", roughly in that order. Here you start the game and you can explore minimally and can't expand. What do you think the reaction of the player is going to be ? Third: from a gameplay point of view, why "cut" the player experience into 2 halves ? The first half is the landing, where you can't speak nor expand, and the second half is fun. Fourth: what are you going to tell them in the tutorial : "You have to get this tech, it's so important that it's mandatory ?"... After writing this... I really don't think it's not a matter of being "sooner". Diplomacy and expansion are core concepts in a 4X game. The whole concept of "unlocking" core concepts of a genre feels utterly alien to me. Making them happen "sooner"... no basically I mean they should be there from the start. My opinion is that it should not have to be unlocked in the first place. Core concepts should be... at the core of a game. And therefore it's a design change that I'll propose to solve this : - Tie expansion to expanding (I proposed lander progress, but could be population or other). - Tie diplomacy to being able to speak. Am I getting clearer with this ? I don't want to be rude nor sound insisting, just I don't think you understood what I'm stating. After that, maybe other mechanics will compensate later. I don't know. |
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Effectively do you want more districts, districts earlier in the game, or more area to build in per district? I've no idea what a district is, or what it's for. What I want is my territory to expand, from early on in the game. Short version is that the very fact that I can spend 200 turns without expanding even once is a design issue to me. |
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Formalized Diplomacy give you the tech you need to place new Civic Centers and buildings that boost government points (Social Progress)add to the quantity of CCs you can place. Placing a CC gives you a district to build in. I am pretty sure but the teleport pads increase the range at which you can place CCs. And you can get started on expanding inside the first 200. |
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Sorry Cinth but you've completely missed the point. |
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It is very possible but then again I think that players are rushing through to do stuff. |
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If you mean rushing to that particular tech to do stuff, that's part of why I think its very existence is a design issue. |
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I'm talking about game pacing (probably just me). I rush techs all the time to do stuff right now (it is a very 4x thing). What I'm not doing is rushing to expand (which I can rush and get to at about 80 turns in). |
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>I can understand a tutorial issue of not being able to get there soon enough, and that is a problem, yeah. It should not be gated to level 2, also, I think -- that's pretty clear now, based on what you are saying. I started a game, not particularly being attentive to gov level, and it's lvl 1 by turn 20, it's going to be level 2 by turn 59 if I don't do anything. That's from the explorer camps alone it seems. I "could" take the formalized research now but it's costing me 40 turn of research instead of the 4-5 turns that other research offer me. It's also on the right of the bar where I can barely see it. I see better your point about "tutorial" but then again I stand by my opinion. "default" expansions mechanics should not be researches. |
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I disagree that making players wait to expand in certain ways is a bad thing -- you can't get a bajillion settlers immediately in Civ, and it's not really the same sort of thing anyhow because you need multiple cities there to do much of anything. That said, it was definitely WAY too buried, along with scouting, and way too expensive as well. Very confusing. So: * The Civic Center and Teleporter Depot now are unlocked via a new Colonization tech, which is separate from Formalized Diplomacy. This separates out the functions of expanding your empire versus talking to other empires, which really are two very different matters. ** This is now a top-level option on the far left, and very inexpensive. ** Wars of Aggression is now a direct descendant of this. * The Sonar tech is now called Scouting, and is also now a direct descendant of Colonization, and is much less expensive. ** This now unlocks both sonar scouts and regular scouts, rather than regular scouts being under interior ballistics. * Wars Of Aggression is also now a direct descendant of Colonization, but retains its prior cost and so forth. * A ton of other changes have been made to the first part of the tech tree to get it better organized and better let you find the ways to expand outwards as well as those things you need to make a basic city in general. |
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>I disagree that making players wait to expand in certain ways is a bad thing -- you can't get a bajillion settlers immediately in Civ, and it's not really the same sort of thing anyhow because you need multiple cities there to do much of anything. I need to work on my "explanation" skill... I actually agree with that statement. I'm not against the "wait". Nor the lock. I'm against the lock being a (mandatory) research on a "default" concept of 4X. That said, with lower costs and accessibility it may be fine. Thanks for considering this part. PS : as I told you, I'm trying not to depress you but I've got spotty record doing so. Sorry =). |
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All good, and I try not to take it personal -- you and everyone else are being super helpful, and generally I don't take it personal at all. I'm more than a bit overwhelmed in general at the moment, but that's mainly because there are several big things I'm trying to redo all at once, and I feel time dwindling away, etc... :/ It's coming together steadily, but my fear is just that it won't do so fast enough. Anyway, any tension you might detect from my end is just based around that. |
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For 0.874: === Linguistics Changes === * The Linguistics window is gone. So is all concept of you having a global "target language" or "target language level". * Linguistic Research Centers now take a target race. * Linguistic Research Centers, Spy Safehouses, and Embassies now generate language research points towards the language of the race they're pointed at. * The city grid now has a column for "language skill" showing the current level of knowledge for that language. The tooltip shows the "language" part out of 5, and the "manipulation" part out of 2 (levels 6 and 7), and also the translation-sample "proverb" that used to show on the linguistics screen. Thanks :) |
| Date Modified | Username | Field | Change |
|---|---|---|---|
| Jun 4, 2015 4:41 am | kasnavada | New Issue | |
| Jun 4, 2015 4:43 am | kasnavada | Summary | Civic center and diplomacy rework => tie diplo to linguistics and expand linguistics => Civic center and diplomacy rework => tie diplomacy to linguistics and expand linguistics |
| Jun 4, 2015 4:43 am | kasnavada | Description Updated | |
| Jun 4, 2015 4:48 am | kasnavada | Description Updated | |
| Jun 4, 2015 4:56 am | kasnavada | Description Updated | |
| Jun 4, 2015 7:57 am | nas1m | Note Added: 0041660 | |
| Jun 4, 2015 9:29 am | Chris_McElligottPark | Note Added: 0041661 | |
| Jun 4, 2015 9:30 am | Chris_McElligottPark | Note Added: 0041662 | |
| Jun 4, 2015 9:30 am | Chris_McElligottPark | Assigned To | => keith.lamothe |
| Jun 4, 2015 9:30 am | Chris_McElligottPark | Status | new => assigned |
| Jun 4, 2015 9:34 am | Chris_McElligottPark | Note Added: 0041663 | |
| Jun 4, 2015 10:29 am | kasnavada | Note Added: 0041670 | |
| Jun 4, 2015 10:32 am | kasnavada | Note Edited: 0041670 | |
| Jun 4, 2015 10:33 am | kasnavada | Note Edited: 0041670 | |
| Jun 4, 2015 11:27 am | ptarth | Note Added: 0041675 | |
| Jun 4, 2015 11:40 am | Chris_McElligottPark | Note Added: 0041680 | |
| Jun 4, 2015 12:13 pm | kasnavada | Note Added: 0041682 | |
| Jun 4, 2015 12:16 pm | kasnavada | Note Edited: 0041682 | |
| Jun 4, 2015 12:17 pm | kasnavada | Note Added: 0041683 | |
| Jun 4, 2015 12:18 pm | kasnavada | Note Edited: 0041683 | |
| Jun 4, 2015 12:20 pm | kasnavada | Note Edited: 0041682 | |
| Jun 4, 2015 12:43 pm | Cinth | Note Added: 0041684 | |
| Jun 4, 2015 12:45 pm | kasnavada | Note Added: 0041685 | |
| Jun 4, 2015 1:18 pm | Cinth | Note Added: 0041687 | |
| Jun 4, 2015 1:21 pm | kasnavada | Note Added: 0041688 | |
| Jun 4, 2015 1:54 pm | Cinth | Note Added: 0041689 | |
| Jun 4, 2015 2:37 pm | kasnavada | Note Added: 0041691 | |
| Jun 4, 2015 3:02 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Note Added: 0041692 | |
| Jun 4, 2015 3:44 pm | kasnavada | Note Added: 0041696 | |
| Jun 4, 2015 3:57 pm | kasnavada | Note Edited: 0041696 | |
| Jun 4, 2015 4:01 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Note Added: 0041702 | |
| Jun 5, 2015 12:19 pm | keith.lamothe | Note Added: 0041771 | |
| Jun 5, 2015 12:19 pm | keith.lamothe | Status | assigned => resolved |
| Jun 5, 2015 12:19 pm | keith.lamothe | Fixed in Version | => 0.874 (Power and Linguistics) |
| Jun 5, 2015 12:19 pm | keith.lamothe | Resolution | open => fixed |
