View Issue Details
| ID | Project | Category | Date Submitted | Last Update | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 0017586 | Stars Beyond Reach | Suggestion | Oct 1, 2015 2:59 pm | Oct 2, 2015 2:27 pm | |
| Reporter | Peons | Assigned To | Chris_McElligottPark | ||
| Status | resolved | Resolution | fixed | ||
| Product Version | 0.912 (Act II, Pollution, Blueshirts V2) | ||||
| Fixed in Version | 0.913 (Hotfix) | ||||
| Summary | 0017586: Building per-territory caps | ||||
| Description | This is written based on your thoughts in the patch notes in section -- "A ton of buildings now have per-territory construction count limits. These limits are not set in stone in terms of what the final numbers will be, but they seem to be a pretty good first guess. " I agree with the base concept but imo this kind of takes away from the game, and I feel a different system should be implemented that prevents the player from spamming buildings down early game. This per-territory cap hasn't changed my early game too much with shop spam (I just wait a couple of extra turns, grab a territory, dump 10 more shops). In city building games and IRL in general cities usually have areas that are "building spammed" (Residential areas, commercial areas, HOLY MOLY IT'S IRL SIMCITY :)). I feel you should change to a system where some of the most spammable buildings right now require consumption of a resource to function, and some of this should be provided by the lander so you can get early game economy, etc. going without a problem. Small Shops - Requires XX shoppers to function Lander - Provides XX * Minimum Desired Starting Economy Like what realistic reason is there to cap solar buildings to XX per territory. Solar farms are typically huge in order to be fully effective and the amount of tiles needed to generate a large amount of power is the trade off (vs oil/nuclear/etc.). I hate using some real-life city comparisons here since this is a video game with aliens and giant monsters but I think the per-territory cap lowers your ability to both design and in some cases make aesthetically pleasing cities. Some people like that, I'm not one of them I just dump stuff wherever and let the sims sort it out. | ||||
| Tags | No tags attached. | ||||
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It's certainly a discussion I'm willing to have, but what you're describing is bloody complicated! As a player can you imagine trying to balance all that in your cities? Nevermind all the extra text that you wind up with. I do agree that it's less realistic in some ways, and I figured that some existing players would have this reaction of yours (hence my wanting to get this change in shortly before adding a bunch of new players). A lot of times the most creativity comes out of having some constraints, rather than complete freedom. Is this one of those times? That's something that could be debated, but I think so. |
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The city builder genre usually has this level of complexity, although the player doesn't see these numbers typically. They just see the abandoned buildings or vacant lots when you zone too much commercial instead of just the raw numbers they get in SBR. I also think per territory caps will hurt players who prefer to play smaller maps too, as they will have less chance of getting additional territory for what they may feel are critical buildings. |
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Someone rang about spamming buildings? Attached a mini-abomination. Short version is this isn't a big enough change to accomplish the goal it set out to accomplish. Now instead of building 90 small shops in 1 territory, I can just do it in 9 territories. I've been thinking about this for a while, and I think there might be some success in moving the majority of crown production away from buildings and towards need fulfillment. For every need of type X (could be all needs, might just be a select few), you get paid X/K crowns. If you have 500 small shops supplying 500000 shopping needs, that's great. But since you only have 100 people with shopping needs, you only get $100. |
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Ptarth: You can kinda see I did the same thing in the save @ 17589 in mantis. I just dump the shops, grab a new territory, dump more shops, new territory, and so on until I feel I've got enough starting land for the map I'm on. |
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Peons: Yeah. That's what I did too. I imagine that most people that abused the economy did so. Your best returns in .910-.911 was small shops, lumbermills, and (amusingly enough) local authorities. Fishing also worked, but required water. |
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Okay, good points both of you. ;) * Removed all of those new building per-territory caps from the prior version. I will do some more thinking on the needs-based thing and see what I can come up with. One problem with needs is that those are not tied to citizen counts, so it would need to be a complementary system right now. |
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New version is out now, fyi. |
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Okay, for the next one: * Civic Centers no longer generate crowns. That was just a bridge too far, evidently. ** Also, the amount of extra crowns generated by your lander as you claim new territories has dropped dramatically: it now goes up by 250 per tier rather than 500. So it maxes out at 2000 instead of 3500. * Repair crews and construction crews also no longer generate crowns. Thematically these are cost centers, not profit centers. * The amount of crowns generated on a building per staff at the building has been seriously re-evaluated. ** We thought about moving to a services-provided model, and might still do that if it turns out we have to, but it looks so far like the two ideas are equivalent: you need citizens and all the services that go with them in order to staff a building to make money. And that's easier to keep track of. ** The problem previously seems to have been that it was possible for a given citizen to add disproportionate amounts of money to the overall income of your empire for their efforts in some cases. In the case of small shops, for instance, those were generating 33 crowns per citizen! That's crazy when a lot of other buildings generate less than 1 crown per citizen. ** Therefore, the following changes have been made in a first-pass balance attempt to get things evened out: *** Small shops: **** Now cost 1/2 the amount to create and 1/2 the construction complexity. **** Previously generated 400 crowns off the work of 12 staff, but now generate 150 crowns off the work of 45. *** Shopping Malls: **** Now have 1/2 the construction complexity. **** Previously generated 1600 crowns off the work of 110 staff, but now generate 1600 crowns off the work of 400. **** This is a very slightly worse deal than small shops, but the amount of land area it takes up is VASTLY lower, and the power efficiency is also better. *** Stock exchanges still generate 14 crowns per citizen, but they are now limited to one per territory. Seems a good tradeoff with them in particular. *** Commercial Offices: **** Previously generated 800 crowns off the work of 80 staff, but now generate 800 crowns off the work of 300. **** Yes this makes them worse than small shops in some respects -- in terms of crowns generated per citizen -- but they are vastly more effective in terms of crowns generated per tile. Also they will have an international ability that is useful that small shops do not have. *** The various resource gatherers now all require much less staff, giving them an exciting 5 crowns per staff generated. But you can't place these just anywhere you want, and if they get destroyed after the resource under them is gone, you can't rebuild them. *** The bonus from fisheries to fishing wharves is now 1.2x instead of 1.5x. *** The Greed Race Theming Type now only provides 1.25x instead of 1.5x. *** The boost to crown production from buildings gaining higher experience levels is now smaller. *** The fishery now generates 1/5th as many crowns as before. *** Fighting arenas now require 136 staff for 612 income rather than 82 for 1400 income. *** Opera Houses now require 80 staff for 360 income rather than 56 for 400 income. *** History Museums now require 16 staff for 72 income rather than 30 for 200 income. *** Solar collectors now generate only 1/25th of the crowns they previously did (1 and 2 respectively). That's next to nothing, but it comes free in terms of staffing, so don't knock it. ;) *** Seaports now generate some income directly (2 crowns per staffer), whereas previously they generated none. *** Thermal strip mines now generate 900 crowns with 214 staff, rather than 600 with 54. *** Lumber Mills now generate only 100 crowns with 46 staff, rather than 400 crowns with that same staff. *** Logging camps now generate only 95 crowns with 38 rather than 200 with that same staff. *** Factories now generate 2200 crowns with 600 staff rther than 900 crowns with 175 staff. *** Chemical plants now generate 110 crowns with their 48 staff, rather than nothing with the same staff. *** Fuel mixing tanks now generate 138 crowns with their 64 staff, rather than nothing with the same staff. *** Philosophariums now generate 40 crowns with 40 staff rather than 0 with 140 staff. *** Philosophariums now generate 40 crowns with 40 staff rather than 0 with 140 staff. *** Broadcast Stations now generate 92 crowns with 57 staff rather than 0 with the 140 staff. *** Literati Societies now generate 60 crowns with 30 staff rather than 0 with the 100 staff. *** Computing Facilities now generate 45 crowns with their 32 staff, rather than nothing with the same staff. *** Banks now generate 400 crowns with their 38 staff, rather than 1000 with the same staff. **** This is still a crazy good deal, but they are now limited to 1 per territory. **** Their construction cost has also dropped from 12.5k to 8.5k. |
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Did you increase birthrates to compensate for these changes? If not there may be issues. I'm on turn 29 of my current Boarine game with 175 people. It is going to take ages to get birthing centers with is now compounded with the massive drop in income. Honestly though, with that many changes anything I say is speculative without trying it out. As to worker-based versus citizen needs-based economic engines The difference between the two should be when you have an excess of services or an excess of unemployed population. A worker based economy generates money as long as it has sufficient workers, the actual population doesn't matter. Whereas a citizen need-based economy must have the citizens to fill those needs. The worker-based economy is going to focus on making the most efficient crown producing building while maintaining sufficient population growth. The need-based economy will require a more diverse approach due to the varying needs and growth as a population. |
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Gotcha. I think that the need-based approach is not really required here since there is more to these buildings than just generating income. They also provide services, a lot of them, and then on the other side you also have international abilities that a lot of them will have that you'll want to be able to make use of. So I'm overall not worried about players not using a diversity of buildings, because they're going to be wanting these other buildings for reasons entirely divorced from pure crown-generation purposes. Anyhow, so hopefully that means a worker-based economy, which is simpler to manage in the interface here, will work out fine. As to the birth rate issue... that's a really good point. Boarines have it particularly bad, but it may be that it needs to be increased for all races. I've got to get some lunch, but just shoot me a note if that or other things seem off. I have a feeling that some early buildings may be too expensive in crowns now, too, so I'd rather hit them all at once. |
| Date Modified | Username | Field | Change |
|---|---|---|---|
| Oct 1, 2015 2:59 pm | Peons | New Issue | |
| Oct 1, 2015 3:10 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Note Added: 0043179 | |
| Oct 1, 2015 3:10 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Status | new => feedback |
| Oct 1, 2015 3:18 pm | Peons | Note Added: 0043180 | |
| Oct 1, 2015 3:18 pm | Peons | Status | feedback => new |
| Oct 1, 2015 3:22 pm | ptarth | Note Added: 0043183 | |
| Oct 1, 2015 3:25 pm | ptarth | File Added: Autosave_Turn_98_Krolin.save | |
| Oct 1, 2015 3:25 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Assigned To | => Chris_McElligottPark |
| Oct 1, 2015 3:25 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Status | new => feedback |
| Oct 1, 2015 3:26 pm | Peons | Note Added: 0043185 | |
| Oct 1, 2015 3:26 pm | Peons | Status | feedback => assigned |
| Oct 1, 2015 3:28 pm | ptarth | Note Added: 0043186 | |
| Oct 1, 2015 3:30 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Note Added: 0043187 | |
| Oct 1, 2015 3:30 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Status | assigned => resolved |
| Oct 1, 2015 3:30 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Fixed in Version | => 0.913 (Hotfix) |
| Oct 1, 2015 3:30 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Resolution | open => fixed |
| Oct 1, 2015 3:47 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Note Added: 0043193 | |
| Oct 2, 2015 1:10 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Note Added: 0043219 | |
| Oct 2, 2015 1:27 pm | ptarth | Note Added: 0043222 | |
| Oct 2, 2015 2:27 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Note Added: 0043226 |
