View Issue Details
| ID | Project | Category | Date Submitted | Last Update | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 0017677 | Stars Beyond Reach | Note To Test | Oct 4, 2015 1:15 pm | Oct 5, 2015 11:18 am | |
| Reporter | Peons | Assigned To | |||
| Status | new | Resolution | open | ||
| Product Version | 0.916 (Money-Grubbing Citizens) | ||||
| Summary | 0017677: Let's break the economy, again! :) | ||||
| Description | So going to be running more eco tests this time, first save is turn 100. You'll notice I almost hit the same mark as last patch but a couple of things in this new patch slowed me down. WHERE IS MY LOVELY POWER BAR :P Still doing this with Zenith because they're "my boys", but I'm pretty sure I could've hit an even higher mark if I made another game and started over. Turn 1 - Shops Turn 2 - Pass Turn 3 - Hospital Get 2 more shops as workers/crowns permit. Get construction crew (speed up hospital) Build 1st commerical office - DESTROY ALL SHOPS once comm office is online. Workers will transfer there, depending on how they transfer your income might take a small hit for a little bit, just pass a turn or two until staffing comes up. Start getting literais planted down, and manage your power/needs. Literais will generate a small amount of crowns but make sure you let them get staffed. Plant birthing centers ASAP once researched. Let the economy bloom commence. Will be playing this save further down the line today and uploading accordingly. rev1 = turn 100 | ||||
| Tags | No tags attached. | ||||
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Toss in a bank when you can. They are twice as good as offices. |
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Banks are territory capped, and while they are good for worker to crowns efficiency they are horrible on their space to crowns ratio. |
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Uploaded the turn 200 save (Sorta tinkered with something, so technically it's 203). As you can see still have plenty of space, decent military going, and I honestly could've kept the eco boom going. Also, all techs are researched and have been for a few turns now. |
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Actually, isn't this what we want? I'm not sure it is game breaking. |
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Well I figured we were trying to tweak the economy/feeling that you can just get infinite crowns. Honestly other then the 2 bugs I reported doing this game I've kinda just been cruising. Probably going to try for the non-military method of getting the wonders and see how that goes. |
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not a 100 percent relevant but in my current game I started off with an objective to build factory's so I did and I built 7 turns out the horrific amount of pollution out putted by them and sister buildings (chemical and fuel providers) ruin your crown out put a little bit if you want to see for your self I can put up the file to here. |
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You really need the environmental building from Act 2 to handle factories. |
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ive got one down and it doesn't seem to be helping I almost think its made things worse ill be very interested to see how this setup progresses through the game when I have the opportunity to do that. |
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Weird on the factories and pollution thing. I'm much later in the game, but my hazmat + chem plant are stupidly overpowered compared to the pollution my territory is putting out. I'd need about 30-40 factories to overpower just those two buildings pollution-wise. I'm on a Skylaxian game, though. Is it different for other races? |
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It cuts pollution output in half. It's part of the equation. |
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still doesn't really seem to be doing much but yes it is strange considering the amount of hazmats I have stacked in that territory it really shouldn't be a problem but ive turned the poor peltians city into a poison filled hell hole. |
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ptarth had a good grasp on the mechanics of all this in previous versions, so I'll defer to him on this (hopefully he sees it). I haven't checked the building to see if it's mod is getting applied though. |
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The movement of pollution to territory-wide tracking plus the loss of information about the status of pollution has left pollution management unfeasible. Without knowing the production and current status, it is all a shot in the dark. I've got territories that look like they should have tons of pollution, but apparently it is fine. In contrast I have international waters that look pretty clear with massive pollution penalties. I dunno. |
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Thx for chiming in anyways. |
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I think this discussion is moot. It all depends on what kind of a game Chris wants. And since this type of arguing always happens with 4x games a question: can we mod it? |
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I feel the need to stop adding to this. Unless I/we play act 3-4-5 there's no way to know how the game feels and handles. Besides all of the buildings for 3-5 will be rebalanced anyway so why make recomendations based on information that are unknown. |
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As long as the discussion isn't volatile, then it doesn't hurt anything. It may inspire Chris to make a change or two to see how it feels. Econ in general is going to be an ongoing balancing act of its own, and the other mechanics being discussed aren't going to change in the later acts. |
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I mean the last discussion we had before the current pop-tax implementation was a good discussion and led to some balance tweaking. I agree that without seeing the current implementation of act 3 it might be a little difficult to say what position these saves are in but right now they seem to be in fairly strong areas. |
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It really depends on the objectives and how much time pressure gets put in each act beyond III. I/II give us all the time in the world because we should be preparing for whats ahead. Also, you have to figure in the relative difficulties of each race/ leader (and overall difficulty). |
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My Economic Development (tm) Stage 1. Get to 5k income as quickly as possible. (It means I can buy reasonably price buildings) Stage 2. Get to 25k income as quickly as possible. (It means I can buy whatever I want now) Stage 3. Diversify into whatever I want to achieve as my next strategic goal. During Stage 1, high crown to worker efficiency is vital (especially for economically-challenged races). Small shops are decent at 10. However for economically-challenged races it is 6. Logging Camps should be around 15, but they are 7.5. They require trees (rare) and produce tons of pollution. They are rarer and more expensive to maintain and they should be more efficient to pay for it. (Lumbermills may help, but not in Act 1). Fisheries and the Fishing Wharf should have a similar efficiency to lumber camps. However now they have a math error ocean penalty right now. The Fishing Wharf needs the range exclusion to prevent over-spammage. Once Stage 1 is achieved, then I can start saving up for birth centers and other "basic" needs. This is when the snowball starts. Phase 3 is when I shift into larger career placement goals. I need the larger buildings, even if they have less crown-worker efficiency because the population is growing so quickly. However, this is when the citizen-tax hits the hardest. During Phase 1, the tax is small and I'm using the most crown-worker efficient buildings. During this phase, your entire economy is as crown-worker efficient as possible. Everyone is working to make crowns for the empire. The tax slows things down, but isn't too bad. During Phase 2, you start to feel it as you are shifting to less efficient buildings and using more service buildings. The empire wide crown-worker ratio starts to drop because more workers are NOT producing any crowns. During Phase 3, the life gets hard. Most of the buildings I place are NOT economy buildings, so my crown-worker ratio is taking a huge hit. It is bolstered some by the stacking bonuses and unlocking higher industry buildings, but these buildings are not crown-worker efficient, and so my empire wide crown-worker efficiency still drops. Looking at the progressive tax structure you can see that the tax rate increases while your crown-worker efficiency decreases. This leads to unhappiness. As a caveat, Chris and I never seem to be on the same page when it comes to design philosophy. I always get nervous when....(insert list of things that suggest Chris is going to change something). |
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It should be the case that your original buildings would be the most inefficient and as you progress you would get more expensive buildigns that allow for a greater profit and a larger population; not the opposite. Do we need a population cap based on crowns income? I should have as much population as I like if I can provide all of their needs. If this is trivial perhaps we should rebalance their needs. What does that pop cost represent? needs? we already cover that with buildings. Organization? Historicaly, as population centers emerged the costs of services and organization was reduces dramaticaly. If it is bribery and general corruption perhaps adding territory goverment buildings that provide a % in costs reductions is the solution ala civ 4 maintenance - courthouse. Or is it that the game can't handle an exponential growing human player? Should growth be exponential? I'm trying to locate the exact reason why this pop upkeep mechanic was added in the first place and I can't come up with anything. |
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regarding needs ive thinking of doing a game were I intentionally don't satisfy any of citizens needs just to see how easy it is to ignore. |
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If the events aren't added in yet or are bugged you can pretty much ignore them. |
| Date Modified | Username | Field | Change |
|---|---|---|---|
| Oct 4, 2015 1:15 pm | Peons | New Issue | |
| Oct 4, 2015 1:15 pm | Peons | File Added: more eco breaking rev1.save | |
| Oct 4, 2015 2:24 pm | ptarth | Note Added: 0043344 | |
| Oct 4, 2015 2:34 pm | Peons | Note Added: 0043345 | |
| Oct 4, 2015 2:37 pm | Peons | File Added: turn 200.save | |
| Oct 4, 2015 2:39 pm | Peons | Note Added: 0043347 | |
| Oct 4, 2015 3:02 pm | ptarth | Note Added: 0043350 | |
| Oct 4, 2015 3:04 pm | Peons | Note Added: 0043351 | |
| Oct 4, 2015 3:29 pm | crazyroosterman | Note Added: 0043352 | |
| Oct 4, 2015 5:04 pm | Cinth | Note Added: 0043353 | |
| Oct 4, 2015 5:24 pm | crazyroosterman | File Added: for stalin!.save | |
| Oct 4, 2015 5:28 pm | crazyroosterman | Note Added: 0043354 | |
| Oct 4, 2015 6:04 pm | Rythe | Note Added: 0043355 | |
| Oct 4, 2015 6:33 pm | Cinth | Note Added: 0043357 | |
| Oct 4, 2015 8:38 pm | crazyroosterman | Note Added: 0043362 | |
| Oct 4, 2015 8:51 pm | Cinth | Note Added: 0043363 | |
| Oct 4, 2015 10:21 pm | ptarth | Note Added: 0043369 | |
| Oct 4, 2015 10:35 pm | Cinth | Note Added: 0043372 | |
| Oct 4, 2015 10:36 pm | gnosis | Note Added: 0043374 | |
| Oct 4, 2015 10:44 pm | gnosis | Note Added: 0043375 | |
| Oct 4, 2015 10:52 pm | Cinth | Note Added: 0043376 | |
| Oct 5, 2015 1:55 am | Peons | Note Added: 0043384 | |
| Oct 5, 2015 2:25 am | Cinth | Note Added: 0043385 | |
| Oct 5, 2015 10:44 am | ptarth | Note Added: 0043393 | |
| Oct 5, 2015 11:03 am | gnosis | Note Added: 0043396 | |
| Oct 5, 2015 11:05 am | gnosis | Note Edited: 0043396 | |
| Oct 5, 2015 11:06 am | gnosis | Note Edited: 0043396 | |
| Oct 5, 2015 11:06 am | gnosis | Note Edited: 0043396 | |
| Oct 5, 2015 11:07 am | gnosis | Note Edited: 0043396 | |
| Oct 5, 2015 11:07 am | gnosis | Note Edited: 0043396 | |
| Oct 5, 2015 11:08 am | gnosis | Note Edited: 0043396 | |
| Oct 5, 2015 11:09 am | gnosis | Note Edited: 0043396 | |
| Oct 5, 2015 11:12 am | crazyroosterman | Note Added: 0043398 | |
| Oct 5, 2015 11:18 am | gnosis | Note Added: 0043399 |
