View Issue Details
| ID | Project | Category | Date Submitted | Last Update | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 0017685 | Stars Beyond Reach | Balance Issue | Oct 4, 2015 7:24 pm | Oct 4, 2015 10:36 pm | |
| Reporter | Rythe | Assigned To | |||
| Status | new | Resolution | open | ||
| Product Version | 0.916 (Money-Grubbing Citizens) | ||||
| Summary | 0017685: Rework of Energy Tech, Pollution, and Trash | ||||
| Description | The big bad for Acts 1 & 2 in the current build is trash production, at least for Skylaxians, and I'm not seeing anything in the basic race mods that would change that for the rest? Should even be worse in a Krolin game. Oh right, other races can probably dump their garbage on the AI with impunity at the moment. That ability we Skylaxian types are to honorable to use. Ah well. So Skylaxian and socially friendly player problem. It's a shame that these two game types have no ability to manage trash other than conquer territories and turn them into giant landfills until Act 3. But from a meta standpoint, I'm less than thrilled about the energy tech progression too. Given the limits of Hydroelectricity, Burning Coal is actually one of the better pre-nuclear energy techs with Oil not far behind. Burning foliage (trees) is less energy dense, and trash is about the same as burning foliage but with more toxins going up in the smoke cloud. At least that's my understanding given current energy economics and infos. Let's also ignore that burning trash can be made clean using advanced air scrubber tech (See the HERC facility in Minneapolis, MN). What SBR does is the opposite. First we get Oil, which the game says is dirty and mediocre, then foliage which the game says is cleaner and pretty solid energy production-wise. Trash burning is nowhere to be seen, not even in the Act 3 techs, but there is a building for it in your facility doc. So Act 4? Removed? Anywho, here's where the third problem comes in. Pollution doesn't seem to matter at all unless my Hazmat facility gets blown up in combat. One Hazmat, One Chem plant, and I never see pollution problems in my territories. The whole pollution system could be removed and I'd never notice if not for it showing up when I expand into a new territory, and then looking at the stats of mines in neutral territories. So. I suggest swapping the Act 2 Torrefaction tech with the Act 1 Oil Drilling tech and swapping the stats of the Oil Power Plant with the Biomass Power Plant. Then add the trash burning facility to the Torrefaction tech. The Biomass Power Plant would use roughage as present while the trash burning facility would take in about half the trash that the Act 3 Recycling Center does. Our trash burning facility would put out twice(?) the power of a lone wind or solar plant, but also huge amounts of pollution, enough that it'd take a solid chunk out of a hazmat facility on its own. That said, hazmat + chem plants are overpowered at the moment in any case. And putting the Oil Power Plant as the direct precursor to Factories also makes more sense for tech progression than a biomass facility does. The problem I see here is if you made your trash burning facility look super high tech and clean, like said HERC facility's future descendant. May have to juggle building tiles in that case. | ||||
| Tags | No tags attached. | ||||
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Another consideration is to put the Torrefaction tech between Biology and Biochemistry in Act 1, which is a better spot for that sorta thing than the scouting line. Having it on a different path and reachable before the resource gathering buildings would make more sense in a progression standpoint given how energy hungry those resource gathering facilities are. This would also give me a reason to actually use logging camps in Act 1, because there isn't one at the moment. Also nerf the Biomass Power Plant (/w current Oil Power Plant stats) a little. It should go down to balance out the potential power gain of burning some trash. |
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1 your aboustley right dealing with trash as a krolins is a pain in the ass especially when it starts to get to the point were making a landfall just results in you needing enougher land fall in 9 turns id love to have a earlier method for dealing with trash.(especially since nobody apart from the krolins appears to be able to dump trash) |
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The trash burning facility (I forget the name) burns more trash than the recycling center but with more pollution. In SBR v2, that was always my go to for energy/trash needs. It's likely to be an A4 building. Pollution is situational. It is very much positional in that it really only impacts the tiles the clouds cross over. It does hit building efficiency (heavier the cloud,, the heavier the penalty). I'm not sure if it still hits farms and solar panels like it used to (reduced outputs), but I've grown to place heavy polluters away from those buildings (and to the west). On Hazmats: I've yet to eliminate completely the smog cloud from my heavies polluters. Even with the environmental building adding to it. I'm not getting where you see Hazmats are OP (over stacking them isn't very efficient space usage). |
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Bleck. Now I'm thinking about your tech tree too much. Logistics Automation doesn't serve a purpose in Act 1. It should not be there as things currently stand (or as long as the services training wheels remain for Act 1). I'd like Drilling to be shifted to a 4th tier, Act 1 tech. (Currently 3rd tier) I'd like fishing and commercial fishing to branch off of scouting somehow. I'd like Creative Writing and Abstract Reasoning to branch off of Office Jobs with Product Development in between them. As noted in my additional thoughts on diseases, I'd like to see Quarantine Crews and Genetic Manipulation shifted back to the end of Act 2. This with the fishing change would give space for the above by way of shifting the Reconstruction path down a whole line. And I'm just going to rebuild Act 2's tech tree entirely. Top line is Crowd Suppression -> Linguistics -> Hacker Training - > Lander Records Recovery Third Line is Logistics Automation -> Oil Drilling -> Micro-Production -> Ground Defense From Micro-Production, split up to the Second line for Interior Ballistics Fifth line is Field Studies -> Forestry -> Epidemiology -> Quarantine Crew Field Studies splits up to Oil Drilling on Third Line Forestry Splits up to fourth line for City Parks -> Environmentalism Epidemiology splits down to sixth line for Gene Manipulation Seventh line is Brewing -> Organic Foods Organic Foods Splits down to 8th line for Culinary Artistry Ninth line is Retail Training -> Financial Training Financial Training splits up to Culinary Artistry on 8th line. Culinary Artistry splits to Operatic Training and Luxury Construction on Seventh and Ninth lines. |
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I've uploaded my Middle-Class 2 save file for you Cinth. Despite my factories and power plants and landfills and smog clouds and everything else, I cannot find a single building in my territories with a pollution problem. |
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714 turns in, with an average level of 40 on Hazmats and claims they are OP.... Check your fisheries that aren't protected (downwind from the Acutians). Your polluters also seem to be spread about. I know I tend to put major polluters in on territory so I can keep emissions localized. |
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Well, yeah, territories without a hazmat facility do have penalties, like the neutral ones. Maybe I accidentally spread my polluters enough that it never became an issue? Even in the early stages, and definitely before I got my hands on factories. |
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I think this discussion is moot. It all depends on what kind of a game Chris wants. And since this type of arguing always happens with 4x games a question: can we mod it? |
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Mods? Probably not. |
| Date Modified | Username | Field | Change |
|---|---|---|---|
| Oct 4, 2015 7:24 pm | Rythe | New Issue | |
| Oct 4, 2015 8:14 pm | Rythe | Description Updated | |
| Oct 4, 2015 8:19 pm | Rythe | Description Updated | |
| Oct 4, 2015 8:23 pm | Rythe | Note Added: 0043360 | |
| Oct 4, 2015 8:23 pm | Rythe | Description Updated | |
| Oct 4, 2015 8:33 pm | crazyroosterman | Note Added: 0043361 | |
| Oct 4, 2015 8:56 pm | Cinth | Note Added: 0043364 | |
| Oct 4, 2015 9:41 pm | Rythe | Note Added: 0043366 | |
| Oct 4, 2015 9:45 pm | Rythe | File Added: Middle-Class 2.save | |
| Oct 4, 2015 9:49 pm | Rythe | Note Added: 0043367 | |
| Oct 4, 2015 10:15 pm | Cinth | Note Added: 0043368 | |
| Oct 4, 2015 10:24 pm | Rythe | Note Added: 0043370 | |
| Oct 4, 2015 10:35 pm | gnosis | Note Added: 0043371 | |
| Oct 4, 2015 10:36 pm | Cinth | Note Added: 0043373 |
