View Issue Details
| ID | Project | Category | Date Submitted | Last Update | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 0001783 | AI War 1 / Classic | Suggestion - Balance Tweaks | Dec 4, 2010 3:01 am | Jan 3, 2011 11:45 am | |
| Reporter | Suzera | Assigned To | Chris_McElligottPark | ||
| Status | closed | Resolution | won't fix | ||
| Product Version | 4.045 | ||||
| Summary | 0001783: Make all combat ships be, at worst, as slow as missile frigates | ||||
| Description | Group moving to keep ships together to maintain a firepower advantage causes me to not consider using siege starships anymore when I have surplus resources, since they move at a much slower 18 speed vs missile frigate 22, except MAYBE as extra "turrets". Tank mk 3s are 21, and those should probably all be bumped to 22 as well, but at least those are generally far more useful. This isn't an exhaustive list and there might be others. | ||||
| Tags | No tags attached. | ||||
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Lets put it this way - in a 'traditional rts', when was the last time you moved untis of such varying range together? Do you typically move your artillery to the front line with your infantry? Siege starships should not be considered directly part of your fleet - they should be an auxiliary to your fleet. The ranged-blowing-stuff-up arm. Basically, artillery. (oh, and I group move by default.. but my siege starships are never in the same movement group during combat.. they usually operate independently, with a minor escort) |
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All of them. You're not in combat 100% of the time. If I don't wait for the siege starships, then I'm attacking without them, so I shouldn't build them to take to the field in the first place. Their damage isn't all that great for their cost anyway (especially considering they can't hit fleet ships) so I only consider building them when I am capped resources and everything else is built. This is just a reason to not ever build them except as extra turrets, if I've already built pretty much everything else I care to use power on. |
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Then use transports. They are designed to transport units, after all.............. tbh, that post really seems like trolling to me - to be ignoring one of the major ships for damage projection, on the basis of 'they go 4 units slower than frigates'.. Some other parts more so. It overall perhaps seems more like you simply dont understand how to use siege starships, and so you want them made easier to use. |
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if anything, I think the contrast between ships needs to be much higher since 4.0 basically just made everything 'pretty fast' |
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You really shouldn't be using sieges in your main fleet at all, they have a completely different combat function. Need to pop a well defended data center, ion cannon, fortress, or take out some scary-ass starship before it mauls your fleet? Use Sieges. Otherwise you're just wasting money. IMO it's a bit like complaining that Raid starships are underpowered and faster than they need to be because you just group move them around with your fleet everywhere. |
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Actually I use sieges with my main attack fleet on basically every single attack. I guess I'm just used to either waiting or using transports. Of course, transports don't help much when you're deep raiding more than 3 hops out, but I think in that case that yea, you want to leave the sieges home or you won't be able to go fast enough. Honestly I miss the contrast of speed, as nowadays the absolute bare minimum of "real" speed is 22 for a human ship on _epic_ combat style: 1 is the lowest mobile speed base value, all ships get +10 nowadays, and all human ships get double speed. On Normal combat style that becomes 44, and on Blitz it's impossible for a human ship to go less than _88_ (barring engine damage and whatnot, obviously). Space tanks and whatnot used to be quite slower than that ;) |
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Bombers take care of any "well defended" anything just fine and far better than siege starships. The lost time from waiting for sieges to do things is worth more than the loss of bombers/frigates/fighters/whatever after all the enemy units have been pulled out of the shield and slain before going after the shield. I guess I am complaining that they are underpowered to where them being there at all is a detriment due to their slower speed not being worth their power now that you mention it. If they got a decent bonus against raid starships (ultra-light) to overcome their armor I'd possibly be inclined to build them for defense though rather than as a "I have nothing else left to build" thing. They pretty much are literally the last thing I will build right now out of the default ships. They each cost .75 crystal and .75 metal per second in power they are alive too aside from their initial build cost, and that is stuff that could go to more bombers, which can actually blow up fleet ships. I marked this as minor for a reason. "Sieging" might be more fun for some people despite it being a worse tactic than fishing and then taking out the now undefended FF, and siege starships are certainly not needed at all to win, so it's not really a big deal either way. Just trying to make all ships be best ships instead of having a small set of god-ships to choose to win. |
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Maybe you could give them a multiplier against shields (Structural)? Then they would be helpful for sieging against heavily shielded targets. That seems pretty in line with what a Siege ship would be for. |
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That could help, but I'm still not sure it would be worth it except maybe against a shield ninny. You can fish every defensive ship out of the force field except things with long ranges relatively easy to blow them all up outside before using bombers. That pretty much just leaves cruisers in the forcefield many games, which only blow up the extra-cheap fighters that are fairly painless to replace. Raid starships are kind of a weak spot for humans (particularly early game) because of the relatively low base damage per ship and siege starships being able to take those out in less than 4-5 minutes would cover a spot that isn't really covered by default ships right now. Humans don't get artillery guardians to use against raid starships, and this could be like the artillery guardian. It would also be great if they could shoot fleet ships. The slow rate of fire and single large shots should lead to much wasted damage against fleet ships, but at least they could do something to them. Right now bomber starships overshadow siege starships for blowing up large hard targets you need few ships for (AI Eyes). |
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Maybe the AI should be a little smarter about not getting fished out of shields as well? Especially with sniper type units. And yeah, if nothing else, Siege ships probably need a big damage boost. Their DPS is only 24000, Bombers are 46500 and are better in almost every way, aside from range. |
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Snipers don't ever get fished out. You have to go out of range of the units to get them to follow, which is why cruisers usually stay put unless you go pretty far out. |
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The minimum speed is 12 for any non-teleporting units (some of which have lower speeds when not teleporting). And that's what frigates used to have, but they later got a buff because of their nature. Also, all the various ships for the humans move 2x their normal speed, anyway. I'm pretty happy with the ship speeds in general, though I know a lot of the spire ships are pretty lumbering: in the hands of the AI, I think this is really needed. If you're seeing any ships with speed of less than 12, do let me know, but otherwise it's working as intended. |
| Date Modified | Username | Field | Change |
|---|---|---|---|
| Dec 4, 2010 3:01 am | Suzera | New Issue | |
| Dec 4, 2010 3:08 am | Lancefighter | Note Added: 0005181 | |
| Dec 4, 2010 3:49 am | Suzera | Note Added: 0005184 | |
| Dec 4, 2010 3:49 am | Suzera | Note Edited: 0005184 | |
| Dec 4, 2010 4:00 am | Lancefighter | Note Added: 0005185 | |
| Dec 4, 2010 6:44 am | mr_lolz | Note Added: 0005186 | |
| Dec 4, 2010 8:59 am | unclean | Note Added: 0005188 | |
| Dec 4, 2010 11:50 am | keith.lamothe | Note Added: 0005207 | |
| Dec 4, 2010 2:02 pm | Suzera | Note Added: 0005220 | |
| Dec 4, 2010 2:03 pm | Suzera | Note Edited: 0005220 | |
| Dec 4, 2010 2:04 pm | Suzera | Note Edited: 0005220 | |
| Dec 4, 2010 2:05 pm | Suzera | Note Edited: 0005220 | |
| Dec 4, 2010 2:05 pm | Suzera | Note Edited: 0005220 | |
| Dec 4, 2010 2:07 pm | Suzera | Note Edited: 0005220 | |
| Dec 4, 2010 2:08 pm | Suzera | Note Edited: 0005220 | |
| Dec 4, 2010 2:10 pm | Suzera | Note Edited: 0005220 | |
| Dec 4, 2010 2:10 pm | Suzera | Note Edited: 0005220 | |
| Dec 4, 2010 2:11 pm | Suzera | Note Edited: 0005220 | |
| Dec 4, 2010 2:12 pm | Gwyrgyn | Note Added: 0005222 | |
| Dec 4, 2010 2:15 pm | Suzera | Note Added: 0005223 | |
| Dec 4, 2010 2:16 pm | Suzera | Note Edited: 0005223 | |
| Dec 4, 2010 2:19 pm | Suzera | Note Edited: 0005223 | |
| Dec 4, 2010 2:24 pm | Gwyrgyn | Note Added: 0005227 | |
| Dec 4, 2010 2:30 pm | Suzera | Note Added: 0005230 | |
| Dec 4, 2010 10:30 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Note Added: 0005291 | |
| Dec 4, 2010 10:30 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Status | new => resolved |
| Dec 4, 2010 10:30 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Resolution | open => won't fix |
| Dec 4, 2010 10:30 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Assigned To | => Chris_McElligottPark |
| Jan 3, 2011 11:45 am | Chris_McElligottPark | Status | resolved => closed |
