View Issue Details
| ID | Project | Category | Date Submitted | Last Update | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 0002253 | AI War 1 / Classic | Suggestion - Balance Tweaks | Jan 5, 2011 3:27 pm | Jan 16, 2011 12:03 am | |
| Reporter | mr_lolz | Assigned To | Chris_McElligottPark | ||
| Status | resolved | Resolution | fixed | ||
| Fixed in Version | 4.068 | ||||
| Summary | 0002253: Balance: Raid Starship | ||||
| Description | The Flagship has: 4.8 million HP 2500 Armour The Raid Starship MK I has: 1.6 million HP 90,000 Armour against almost every single unit in the game, the raid starship MK I has effectively 8 million HP. it also moves 7x the speed of the flagship, has radar dampening 8000 and about 60% of the DPS. how is this not grossly overpowered? | ||||
| Tags | No tags attached. | ||||
| Internal Weight | |||||
|
|
Every time we nerf it down to make the durability more sane when defending against it, complaints pour in that it's useless for the human. Every time we buff it to make it useful for the human, complaints pour in that it's OP in the hands of the AI. |
|
|
Personally, I suggest reverting it all the way back to pre-90k armor days. With the guardians, the AI has far more damage-potential than the players have (especially the artillery guardian), meaning the armor makes it lopsided in favor of the AI. With the current armor, FF-ignore and speed of the raid starships, if the AI sent in a raid starship and headed straight for the command station, the command station is very likely to die. This does not work the other way around, since the AI can have external invincibility on their command stations. Removing the armor and reverting it back to missile-immune would likely solve this issue. Players would once again be able to hurt them with their normal ships, and artillery guardians wouldn't eat it for breakfast anymore either. |
|
|
just saying, they were perfectly legit in 3.0 days. missile immunity made sense, considering the things that kill them (eg. forts, arty gaurdians) |
|
|
This seems to reveal a current imbalance of the armor stat. The AI's firepower is so great that nothing but an very high armor rating will be of much use to players on the offense. The player's firepower is quite weak compared to the ai, thus even a medium amount of armor is a real pain to fight against when the AI uses them on the offense. This is NOT a fundamental problem of the armor mechanic, but it would be very hard to change because of how almost all AI exlusisive units work (especially their attack and hull bonuses). |
|
|
The more moderate armor values should be easier to deal with since many bonus types and some turret types were made considerably better against armor during the recent rebalancing (and armor values were adjusted to be in line with the new piercing values). Still some ways to go on that (like the Grenade launcher still being insane, haven't gotten to that one yet), but it should be better than a month ago. |
|
|
Yeah, there's definitely nothing wrong with moderate armor values. With a mixed fleet, some ships are bound to have a good attack multiplier/armor ignore to counter the armor. Few, if any, player ships have the ability to bypass 90k armor with damage alone though, meaning that all ships only deal 20% damage against raid starships. This doesn't include units with armor ignore though (although only the snipers have that amount of armor ignore that I can think of right off the top of my head). |
|
|
why was the missle immunity removed? it seems like that protected them from most the things that massacre starships (missle gaurdposts, artillery gaurdians, fortresses, human missle turrets) a flagship has 2000 armour? how about balancing the raid starships to have 3000? throw in the missile immunity, keep the radar dampening and add significant regeneration? that way, they cant take a big chunk of damage once, but they can take light damage over long periods of time |
|
|
Okay, after trying raid starships again, I found how awesome they are. A moderate number of Mk. II ships firing on them (I was taking out an AI eye), were barely denting my Mk. I starship. Only the guardians around the wormholes really did any noticeable damage, and even then it wasn't all that much damage. Their armor does need some nerfing. |
|
|
Could we possibly give Raid Starships Dark Matter ammo, similar to the Eyebot change? |
|
|
We could, though I'd like to know what others think. I think it's good to have some stuff that can't be defended against through the usual tractor/ff/counter-turret layers. |
|
|
Yea, I think having one unit in the game that can pretty much bypass any sort dedicated defense options is nifty. You just gotta make sure the non-dedicated defense options (like mobile military) have a chance against it, or rather, be able to kill it pretty quickly. |
|
|
Well, looking at the reference data in the middle of some other stuff, it looks like a cap of fighter mkIs can almost beat a cap of raid starship mkIs. It would be somewhat worse in reality due to the differing granularities, of course. But sniper turrets (close enough to get through radar jammers) should do a decent job of mauling raid starships. |
|
|
Hmm, I think I know the real complaint now. In the early game, a raid starship very well could get into your planet unexpectedly. As it stands now, getting enough of the things that can stop it effectively is too cost prohibitive in the early game. This is true for other starships too, but they don't bypass forcefields or have crazy speed. So I guess we are asking to make Mk. I raid starships not an "I win" ship for the AI in the early game by either nerfing it, or by preventing them from getting onto player planets (maybe by preventing them from spawning) in the very early game. Once players hit the middle of the early game, raid starships can typically be taken out fast enough. |
|
|
has there been any progress on these? I still find them immensely irritating in the AIs hands (when playing against Extreme Raider AI types, I *always* lose a Human Colony in the first wave to the resulting raid starships... there is no way to defend against 800+ ships AND focus fire on the raid starships quickly enough this early in the game.) |
|
|
Anything with armor piercing can obliterate Raid Starships with ease. Your calculations are based on AI ships that do not have any armor piercing. That is not the case all the time. |
|
|
Hopefully this handles it: * Missile Turrets now have armor piercing of a flat 90,0000. This gives players one more recourse against raid starships in the hands of the AI (along with sniper turrets, fighters, and a couple of other turrets). I'm not feeling like we should make too many changes to the raid starships themselves, as then players complain like crazy about them not being useful in AI territory. And they do tend to get beat to heck in the AI land a lot of the times. Instead, this gives another tool in the player arsenal against AI stuff. |
| Date Modified | Username | Field | Change |
|---|---|---|---|
| Jan 5, 2011 3:27 pm | mr_lolz | New Issue | |
| Jan 5, 2011 3:29 pm | keith.lamothe | Note Added: 0007529 | |
| Jan 5, 2011 4:08 pm | Toll | Note Added: 0007530 | |
| Jan 5, 2011 5:30 pm | mr_lolz | Note Added: 0007532 | |
| Jan 5, 2011 5:51 pm | TechSY730 | Note Added: 0007539 | |
| Jan 5, 2011 6:03 pm | keith.lamothe | Note Added: 0007542 | |
| Jan 5, 2011 6:52 pm | Toll | Note Added: 0007546 | |
| Jan 6, 2011 5:21 am | mr_lolz | Note Added: 0007581 | |
| Jan 6, 2011 7:49 pm | TechSY730 | Note Added: 0007634 | |
| Jan 7, 2011 10:53 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Assigned To | => keith.lamothe |
| Jan 7, 2011 10:53 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Status | new => acknowledged |
| Jan 7, 2011 11:21 pm | Sunshine | Note Added: 0007885 | |
| Jan 7, 2011 11:23 pm | keith.lamothe | Note Added: 0007886 | |
| Jan 7, 2011 11:25 pm | TechSY730 | Note Added: 0007887 | |
| Jan 7, 2011 11:26 pm | TechSY730 | Note Edited: 0007887 | |
| Jan 7, 2011 11:32 pm | keith.lamothe | Note Added: 0007889 | |
| Jan 7, 2011 11:42 pm | TechSY730 | Note Added: 0007894 | |
| Jan 7, 2011 11:44 pm | TechSY730 | Note Edited: 0007894 | |
| Jan 14, 2011 7:35 am | mr_lolz | Note Added: 0008466 | |
| Jan 14, 2011 12:07 pm | lyravega | Note Added: 0008473 | |
| Jan 16, 2011 12:03 am | Chris_McElligottPark | Note Added: 0008616 | |
| Jan 16, 2011 12:03 am | Chris_McElligottPark | Status | acknowledged => resolved |
| Jan 16, 2011 12:03 am | Chris_McElligottPark | Fixed in Version | => 4.068 |
| Jan 16, 2011 12:03 am | Chris_McElligottPark | Resolution | open => fixed |
| Jan 16, 2011 12:03 am | Chris_McElligottPark | Assigned To | keith.lamothe => Chris_McElligottPark |
