View Issue Details
| ID | Project | Category | Date Submitted | Last Update | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 0003176 | AI War 1 / Classic | Suggestion - New Features | Apr 3, 2011 11:50 pm | Apr 5, 2011 10:18 am | |
| Reporter | Sunshine | Assigned To | |||
| Status | new | Resolution | open | ||
| Summary | 0003176: Mk2 and mk3 factories/starship fabricators | ||||
| Description | As posted (and copied from) here: http://www.arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,8493.msg75611.html#msg75611 That being said, I have no problems with the idea of upgrades for space docks or starship constructors. There are two obvious ways to do this: 1. low knowledge cost, high-ish cap, and increases production speed such that mk# ships will be produced at the same speed as mk1 ships from a mk1 space dock. 2. high knowledge cost, low-ish cap, increases production speed and reduces production cost such that mk# ships will be produced at the same speed and cost as mk1 ships. I am far less likely to unlock the first, since I can just use engineers to speed up construction if necessary. I am VERY likely to unlock the second as an alternative to econ command stations or harvesters. There will be tradeoffs here for implementing the second idea; taking a fleet heavy approach will be more necessary by unlocking the space docks since you'll be saving resources, but you'll be more limited in your ability to implement large construction projects. Similarly, unlocking the mk3 econ or harvesters will probably end up being less efficient for a fleet heavy approach, but will be far more efficient if a player likes large construction projects. Let's take a look at the numbers game for option 2 really quickly here: At most, a ship will cost 120 metal and crystal per second. Unlocking mk3 space dock and building 6 (to match the number of mk3 econ command stations one can have), a player will instead be spending only 40 metal/crystal per second (in reality it would still be 120 per second for 1/3rd the amount of time, but I didn't want to deal with adding in time as a question), so the space docks have essentially allowed the player to "make" 80 metal/crystal per second (usually less than this because I can't think of any ships that actually cost 120/120 per second). Given 6 space docks, they're making 480 metal/crystal per second (best-case scenario). With 6 econ command stations, a player is making 160 metal/crystal per second guaranteed, for each command station, so 960 of each total. A player will be making double the cash with the econ command stations unlocked instead of the mk3 space docks, so I in no way think this would be broken (especially since a player using mk2 space docks as well would end up being inefficient costwise, but maybe efficient timewise). For knowledge costs, suggest 4000 for mk2 factory, 5000 for mk3 factory (since they will see a lot of use if unlocked and arguably have much more utility than econ command stations, but with less economic return) along with a cap of 6 for each. For the starship fabricators, suggest a lower cost of probably 2000 for mk2 and 2500 for mk3, with a cap of 2 for each (they will see far less use, and generate far less return both economically and utility-wise) Mk4 factories will not need to be changed since, thematically, they're: different (producing super advanced tech), AI technology, and are producing something that can only be produced one other way (enclave mk4 for a whopping 20k knowledge). Let me know if I forgot to cover anything! | ||||
| Tags | No tags attached. | ||||
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you need to look up the stargates they added for streamlining of production. you can tear down and rebuild your factorys in a blockaded corner then use the gates to bring them to whichever front you need them built on |
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Motai, I know about those and use them (and they don't actually streamline production for me - I WANT my fleet centralized at my production facilities generally). This topic is not about those. This topic is about giving players another choice for streamlining their economy which does not produce as great of a return as econ stations, but will have more utility for people who rely more heavily on fleetships/starships and don't go for large building projects as often. The above should not be broken at all, since it will always provide less return than a cap of mk3 econ stations. If this was done the first way, all you'd be getting is each factory replacing a couple engineers, which would end up costing maybe 500/1000 knowledge mk2/mk3. That's boring, and pretty useless overall. |
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At first glance this looks very imbalanced, but reading the numbers makes it look quite the opposite. However there are situations where this can be very imbalanced, such as if you hit resource cap. This unlock would GREATLY increase the number of ships you could make in short order (think a production world with 1/2 of all engineers on it plus these docks) where normal docks would drain the resources if you produced too quick |
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I wrote out this huge post with a better comparison of actual production, but it got eaten, so here's a short version: Total income from producing a ship with 120/120 m/c cost 6 mk3 factories, 6 mk1 econ stations: 36 - 40 = -4 m/c per second per pair = -24 m/c per second total. This is Best Case Scenario for money saved. 6 mk1 factories, 6 mk3 econ stations: 180 - 120 = 60 m/c per second per pair = 360 metal/crystal per second total. This is Worst Case Scenario. Total income from producing a ship with mixed cost of 120/8 m/c averaged to 64/64 m/c cost per second for simplicity. 6 mk3 factories, 6 mk1 econ stations: 36 - 0000134:0000043 = -9 m/c per second per pair = -72 m/c per second total 6 mk1 factories, 6 mk3 econ stations: 180 - 64 = 116 per pair = 696 total Economically, using mk3 econ stations is still strictly better for total income than using mk3 factories would be, but mk3 factories would give players the flexibility that comes with rapid force deployment. If players decide to unlock both at 18000 knowledge, they'll be looking at not having much else unlocked since that's 6 planets worth of knowledge right there. |
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Try computing the m/c per second with the cap of mk2 and mk3 engineers assisting it As for the K cost, that does seem to balance it out a bit but I'm thinking there could be quite a few situations I'm not thinking of where the rapid production ability really outweighs it |
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There's actually no need to compute the m/c per second cost with engineers assisting because I've converted the above numbers so that production times are the same, but costs are different. If this were in-game, it would actually be production costs being the same, with production time being 1/3rd what it otherwise would be if using mk3 factories. Adding in engineer usage, you'll still be tanking your economy as much with mk3 as with mk1, you'll just be tanking it for only 1/3rd the amount of time, which translates into 1/3rd the resources used. And yeah, the rapid production ability is supposed to outweigh the knowledge cost to incentivize use. If utility is equal to cost (i.e. you are "indifferent") you are unlikely to use something in this game because of how limited the resources actually are (players will want a decent return, utility-wise, on any investments made). Clearly, since the factories don't produce the same economic gain (or really any economic gain, just savings) as econ structures of similar knowledge cost, they would have to have some other benefit (i.e. reduced-cost rapid deployment times as an alternative to an engineer swarm) as an incentive. |
| Date Modified | Username | Field | Change |
|---|---|---|---|
| Apr 3, 2011 11:50 pm | Sunshine | New Issue | |
| Apr 4, 2011 4:20 am | motai | Note Added: 0011654 | |
| Apr 4, 2011 12:13 pm | Sunshine | Note Added: 0011656 | |
| Apr 4, 2011 8:00 pm | HTL2001 | Note Added: 0011667 | |
| Apr 4, 2011 10:56 pm | Sunshine | Note Added: 0011672 | |
| Apr 5, 2011 3:31 am | HTL2001 | Note Added: 0011676 | |
| Apr 5, 2011 10:18 am | Sunshine | Note Added: 0011677 |
