View Issue Details
| ID | Project | Category | Date Submitted | Last Update | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 0016700 | Stars Beyond Reach | Bug - Gameplay | May 14, 2015 7:40 pm | Jun 6, 2015 3:24 pm | |
| Reporter | GarathJJ | Assigned To | keith.lamothe | ||
| Status | resolved | Resolution | fixed | ||
| Product Version | 0.820 (Flying Saucers) | ||||
| Fixed in Version | 0.876 (Much Sanity Was Added) | ||||
| Summary | 0016700: Disease sloth much worse than tooltip says it should be | ||||
| Description | In the attached save, getting the building details (on just about anything, but Banks or Research Labs are the most apposite) shows a 0.46x multiplier on relevant production from the Alveolar Decay that I just caught. However, the tooltip says that it should be a 0.932x multiplier instead, which is the one I assume is true since this a nice, friendly first disease of the game, right? 0.46 looks awfully like half of 0.932 rounding down to two sf, too. | ||||
| Tags | No tags attached. | ||||
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Alternatively, as I see on the next turn (attached) the production is worse again the following turn. Is the sloth effect actually a per-turn multiplier? If so, is it meant to be? If it is, I think it might be a bit harsh, and it definitely needs better signposting to that effect. If my production and science are both going to be halved every what, 6-7 turns, it seems essentially impossible to research and build the medical facilities I would need to ever beat this disease. What have I misunderstood? |
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I think the problem is that the modifier is .932, which is actually means 6% is the eventual output. What you are seeing is the population of your buildings gradually being infected and lowering as more people get the disease. Also, turn on Toxin Screening, build a graveyard, and another dump. |
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Ah! That makes sense I suppose, though in that case I still feel that the tooltip should be clarified somehow - since all the other parameters are expressed as a small positive percentage chance of something happening, it didn't occur to me that the sloth might be a) that bad or b) expressed the other way up. Can you explain further why I need a second graveyard? I have one, and it's barely used. The second dump certainly I know I needed - I saw that a couple turns later when it overflowed, since I wasn't looking ahead at that particular stat. Likewise, since you have far (far) more experience of this than I do, what advantage do I actually gain from Toxin Screening here, given that I don't have nearly enough crowns/energy to keep the people alive if I do? Aren't they more valuable alive but infected than they are dead, even with that terrible sloth value? JJ |
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100 people with your toxin produce 6 crowns. 6 people without your toxin produce 6 crowns. If you save them, they will end up killing you. Soylent Green is going to be on the menu for a while. The reason you need a graveyard is that you are going to have ~20k bodies shortly from the toxin screening. Your population is already MUCH too contaminated, so it is going to be a rough purification process. Actually, and this sounds horrible from a moral situation, if I had the option to press a button to just liquify anyone with a disease, I'd be pushing that button whenever I get almost any disease early game. In mid/late game, you have so much disease curing power that the worst disease lasts less than 5 turns. I have opinions on how the balance is done, but without Chris's ideas about how he wants things to balance out, I am trying to refrain from speaking out. |
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Spent a few turns on your save getting things stable. It should give you some ideas of what I was thinking. |
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Thanks a lot for that! Let me see if I understand your theories correctly now (certainly this game looks better than my own continuation to that point): Basically, you're turning on Toxin Screening even though it will kill ~ 150 people per turn, then leaving quarantine off in order that the births (I presume you would rather I'd had more birthing centres in the first place, then?) can partially counterbalance that, in order to retain as many of the ~ 1500 people uninfected as possible so that some work can actually still be done. On ending turn, I see that only 39 people have actually died from Toxin Screening in that turn. It definitely kill 146 people on the first turn I had it since I initially tried something more like what you have here, which was what made me assume that plan wasn't viable - I don't remember the crown/power cost per screen, so I assumed that I just didn't have enough to make that plan work. I can certainly see that with a disease with sloth factor this high (which I didn't know when I was initially looking at the screening, of course) it really is better to just let them die to toxin screening anyway since the births will all be uninfected and even if all the other healthy people were to die as they would have done if it was 146 per turn then the 74 births per turn would still be better than many many hundreds of infected. I had expected that Quarantine would kick in quickly enough to retain that core instead (though in fact it did not) For what it's worth the initial infection was ~ 1850 people - the save here is only a couple turns after that point. "Your population is already MUCH too contaminated" wasn't something I had a choice about. Anyway, thanks a lot for your time responding to me here. I think I understand things somewhat better now. (And I still didn't need the second graveyard, of course. Even here, only 1k of the space has been used. There was plenty more time on that one. I think my city may just be much smaller than the ones you're used to?) (Thanks to jerith for pointing out that initially I had unintentionally garbled links to comments here) |
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Mantis turns "~" followed by a number into a link to a comment, which is confusing. Maybe leave a space to get ~ 150 instead of 0000269:0000150? |
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Sorry, I hadn't seen this earlier GarathJJ. Your summary seems consistent with what I recall. I actually tried solving the problem a couple of different ways based on the premise of purging the disease. The amount of people infected prior to .870 was so high than you have to immediately do something about it, otherwise disaster. And even if you did do something immediately, sometimes it still wasn't soon enough. I think the new infection rules are better, but actually went too far. My populations are generally high enough that I keep an extra graveyard or five around, because if I get a crime spike I can end up with 5k bodies on a single turn. Which then starts a crime-death spiral. I guess I'm paranoid about that. In this case you were right and didn't need to worry about it. You also probably ended up with an even more optimal solution than the one I proposed. |
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For 0.876: * Fixed the disease-sloth math so that when it says (for example) "0.93x" for the disease's sloth, that means that the disease's maximum effect (if everyone is infected) is a 7% reduction in production of the affected things, rather than something like a 93% reduction. Thanks :) |
| Date Modified | Username | Field | Change |
|---|---|---|---|
| May 14, 2015 7:40 pm | GarathJJ | New Issue | |
| May 14, 2015 7:40 pm | GarathJJ | File Added: 815-820 krolin - boarine snow saucers.save | |
| May 14, 2015 7:43 pm | GarathJJ | File Added: 815-820 krolin - the next turn.save | |
| May 14, 2015 7:46 pm | GarathJJ | Note Added: 0040841 | |
| May 14, 2015 8:27 pm | ptarth | Note Added: 0040844 | |
| May 14, 2015 8:35 pm | GarathJJ | Note Added: 0040845 | |
| May 15, 2015 12:17 am | ptarth | Note Added: 0040846 | |
| May 15, 2015 12:17 am | ptarth | Note Edited: 0040846 | |
| May 15, 2015 12:18 am | ptarth | Note Edited: 0040846 | |
| May 15, 2015 12:39 am | ptarth | Note Added: 0040847 | |
| May 15, 2015 12:40 am | ptarth | File Added: 815-820 krolin - boarine snow saucers stable.save | |
| May 15, 2015 3:53 am | GarathJJ | Note Added: 0040853 | |
| May 15, 2015 8:01 am | jerith | Note Added: 0040854 | |
| May 18, 2015 11:55 am | GarathJJ | Note Edited: 0040853 | |
| Jun 5, 2015 1:11 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Assigned To | => keith.lamothe |
| Jun 5, 2015 1:11 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Status | new => assigned |
| Jun 5, 2015 1:51 pm | ptarth | Note Added: 0041805 | |
| Jun 6, 2015 3:24 pm | keith.lamothe | Note Added: 0041900 | |
| Jun 6, 2015 3:24 pm | keith.lamothe | Status | assigned => resolved |
| Jun 6, 2015 3:24 pm | keith.lamothe | Fixed in Version | => 0.876 (Much Sanity Was Added) |
| Jun 6, 2015 3:24 pm | keith.lamothe | Resolution | open => fixed |
