View Issue Details
| ID | Project | Category | Date Submitted | Last Update | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 0001689 | AI War 1 / Classic | Suggestion - Balance Tweaks | Dec 1, 2010 5:36 pm | Dec 2, 2010 6:03 pm | |
| Reporter | Suzera | Assigned To | Chris_McElligottPark | ||
| Status | resolved | Resolution | fixed | ||
| Product Version | 4.042 | ||||
| Fixed in Version | 4.043 | ||||
| Summary | 0001689: Warp counterposts are still the most dangerous non-disableable thing in a normal AIP game, by far | ||||
| Description | Early game it's not so bad at 400-800ish ships on 7-7.6 difficulty, but unless you play a low AIP/deepstriking game, where you wouldn't even take the planet anyway and thus don't need to worry about how strong or weak counterposts are, they get to the point where they are more dangerous than the AI's entire standing army, particularly if 4000 mk4/core units show up on your HW's doorstep with a couple raid starships. If there were a strong default mobile AoE unit (like the electric shuttle, but with lightning turret strength and cap) it would be more handleable, but most of your default given static AoE defense is needed to hold off the tens of thousands of regular units at your warp lane that will inevitably pop out when carriers are all targeted first. It's not very fun (and sometimes impossible) to move the entirety of your static defense for every counterwarp post. If they went into the regular warp lane where the static AoE (beam cannons/lit turrets) can deal with them that would also go towards putting them more in line with raid engines in difficulty. It doesn't help that every other planet usually has a warp counterpost so unless you're doing deepstriking all the time, you're going to end up dealing with dozens of them every game, unlike raid engines which are typically rare and give you a (theoretical) regular warp wave into your normal defense lane (even if it's not warped to your planet directly, it's in an expected defense lane). | ||||
| Tags | No tags attached. | ||||
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Lightning warheads often work wonders when dealing with situations that defy normal control. But yes, counterattack posts are very dangerous. |
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Lightning warheads also make counterposts even worse though because a lot of them are in carriers so you can't just use a few to wipe them all out and you end up bumping your AIP something fierce. Sure I can blow these up with lightning missiles, but the next counterpost will be 10% bigger because of using missiles, and I (hypothetically) have another 8 to go through. I don't have a problem with them being dangerous, but they are more dangerous than anything else in the entire game that you can't turn off, by a huge margin. They're more dangerous than if the AI just nuked a random non-HW planet for each one after 800ish or so AIP unless you happen to have specific types of units and/or are fine with taking half an hour for each counterpost. They pretty much turn the planets they are on into "don't take this planet ever" if I am seriously trying to win. The complaint is really that these are a non-decision that always shifts me into a specific strategy (deepstriking across a dozen systems) to win better. They don't really add any difficulty or strategic depth at all. They just turn into "don't touch this planet" markers 100% of the time unless I artificially limit myself in a way that I have to take the planet. |
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Quite often you HAVE to take one of those planets to get some various reward, though. Or for position. I'll note that they probably are going to be less severe (perhaps 2x so) in the next version due to a bug with the mixed-ship wave types that Keith fixed in the next version. But largely, these are expected to be one of the most fearsome types of units in the galaxy. |
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In the best winning strategy that will consistently net you wins in 2-4 hours, advanced labs are all just an extra ship you don't have knowledge for, advanced factories give you units that are twice as expensive as mk 3, but maybe 20-25% better and take a lot of time to finish all of, resource boosters would just shave off a couple minutes of build time which will not balance out the time to take the planet and so on. They're all useless for the quickest and most reliable winning strategy of just deepstriking over however many planets you need to to get one planet two steps from the AI HW to place docks, blow up the data centers next to the AI HW, then blow up the AI HW. Warp counterposts are one of the biggest things dragging down the viability of a many planets strategy against the "ignore all planet bonuses and just get next to the AI HW and win reliably in 2-4 hours" strategy. A many planets strategy already has crushing regular attack waves in comparison, and then has to contend with a dozen(s) of potentially crushing counter attack waves that ignore player defenses. It saps the strategic depth of the game when the best strategy by far is "ignore almost everything", and warp counter posts only encourage "ignore everything" even more. Edit: Z. Power Generators are sometimes worthwhile. The low planet useage tends to mean more power in a more compact number of planets. I would still only take one if it is in a defense lane to my HWs from the AI HWs though. You need a few planets for knowledge sometimes too, but new warp link count is more important than any planet bonus. +5 AIP is worth more than almost any planet bonus besides the power generator or MAYBE a drill for one extra warp link to blow up. Counterposts seem like something that should be an "added" challenge to influence what strategy you are using like raid engine AI, one way doormaster AI, or technologists, not something that is everywhere in every game. It just so happens that it encourages what is already the best strategy of ignoring almost everything even if they weren't around at all which is kind of a double whammy to the strategic depth right now if your goal is a reliable and efficient win. |
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I really don't feel like that's at all related to warp counterattack posts. If anything, that's a matter of the AI home planets not being formidable enough from the start. You're focusing on a downstream problem, in other words. The core problem here is that victory shouldn't be possible without having captured at least 4/5 of the advanced research stations and an advanced factory or two, plus a substantial-enough number of planets to enable that. You are supposed to HAVE to take a certain minimum of planets, and the fact that you're not having to is the biggest trouble here, as I see it. Actually, that gives me a great idea. THIS is going to change the game a lot... |
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The advanced labs aren't necessary right now, but enough knowledge for mk 3 triangles is. Capturing planets beyond that is pretty superfluous. That ends up being about 6-8 planets total, then deepstrike to win. |
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Chris with an idea? A great one!? Next patch will be interesting, then. I hope it won't make it any difficult than it is currently, but somehow I doubt that's the case. |
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Can I just say this is basically the reason you guys are my favorite developers? We see a statement like "counterattack posts are hard and cause me to play more conservatively, which works." Most developers would look at that and either make the counterattack posts less fearsome, or make them optional, both of which rob the base game of an interesting strategic element and generally make the entire experience less interesting. Instead, you look at the problem from the effect end, and come up with an entirely different way to tackle the issue. This is a very, VERY good thing. Far better to incentivize the strategic challenge, rather than removing it. And for the record, once Keith's wave fixes are in I think counterattack posts will be fine. |
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Precisely. ;) |
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By that logic, raid engines should be everywhere by default, because those are pretty hard too and cause you to plan in specific ways. I look forward to seeing what this great idea is though. Raid engines are at least far more fun. Despite the fact that they are technically more difficult, I'd much rather see raid engines under mk 3 FFs replace all counterposts than leave counterposts how they are. |
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Actually in most respects they're exactly like a CPA, except they wait for you to trigger them so they can't turn up at an inconvenient time, obligingly tell you where they're going, and all show up in the same place so you can stack your defenses there. Raid engines, which generate major waves unexpectedly and provide you little to no reaction time, are much meaner IMO. Of course if you're seeing them every other planet, and obviously you're getting the bugged gigantic waves, I can understand your antipathy. I've never seen them concentrated beyond one every fifth planet or so, making them far easier to avoid, and obviously once that bug fix is up the counts won't be nearly so unreasonable. |
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Raid engines are more fun because you can't just ignore them. "Ignoring" them comes with a price as does blowing them up, unlike counterposts which you can just ignore forever with almost no issue other than a bit more reinforcements to one planet. Raid engines you choose each time to take its 5 AIP or take its waves, and if you choose the former forever, you have to take strategic decisions to not trigger it too much. Counterposts you just choose to not activate ever before you click start game (for now anyway) and that's it. If more planets are going to be required, that could change though. Although, it could just lead to things like deepstriking the counterposts with minimal planets and floor AIP to clean up the counterwaves while they're low count then pump up the AIP when they're done with whatever planets you had planned to pick up. |
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Thanks, Vinraith. :) Suzera, my notes: 1. Regarding why Raid Engines aren't everywhere, it's because -- en-masse -- they are far more difficult than a counterattack guard post. They strike without being destroyed, etc. Also, they are an expansion feature and having them always-on would change the game's feel enormously simply by have TZR on. Very undesirable. Also, Raid Engines don't add as much in a grand strategic sense: waves against adjacent planets are nothing new, it's just the need for scouting and skirting that the raid engines add. 2. The purpose of the counterattack guard posts, and the reason they are so prevalent (and not to be nerfed below a certain point) is to make it impossible for players to set up sections of planets that are "perfectly defended" behind a stronghold choke point. In the normal play mechanics, AI ships always come through wormholes or from warp gates that are adjacent to your planets. This is akin to always coming through the front door, and leads to a certain conservative playstyle (e.g., find a group of planets behind a choke point, then hold that point). The counterattack guard posts require players to maintain at least some degree of defense-in-depth at all times, but particularly when there is a planet they have to take which also has a counterattack guard post. It's the AI's equivalent of deep striking, which players of course use to great effect. As to the new mechanic, it will be a mechanism for requiring players to take at least 1 advanced factory planet, and 4/5 of the advanced research planets, before the AI homeworlds can even be attacked. These ultra-conservative low-planets-held strategies simply aren't valid, and the alternative is somewhere I've been before: having the AI homeworlds be so beefy that they are incredibly grindy in the late game, which also isn't good; that led to most players "declaring they had won" and stopping before they actually had won. The logical solution, then, is a multi-stage AI takedown procedure that requires you to take certain planets that it was expected you were required to take, anyway. I can already hear the approaching complaints from some quarters about how this will prevent certain playstyles, etc, etc, and to that my answer is: yes. Yes, it will. But only the ones that don't allow for a natural progression of AI difficulty, and so short-circuit (and thus drastically break) the game. |
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Raid engines being harder doesn't make them less fun than counterwarp posts. Each raid engine individually invokes constant decisions unless you take the 5 AIP plunge, which is pretty big. Counterposts are usually one decision before the game starts for the entirety of all of them on the map before the game starts. That change will still only make things take slightly longer as 5 planets + HW is already kind of the minimum amount now. I have a save game laying around where I have about 8 planets and have blown up every non-counter, non-wormhole guard post on a 120 planet snake map in a little under 3 hours on 7 difficulty, and one is a heavy defender type. The only real reason it took that long was that I had advanced hybrid hives enabled so my start was slower. That's deepstriking across 112 planets the AI owns, and includes all of both of the AI HW guardposts. Taking a few less HW cluster planets and plopping some colony ships in the Adv Lab/Factory planets when the AI HW takedown fleet is balled up is a very minor change. After clearing your attack lanes, just wait for an AI attack wave to come, quickly hit the worlds with your fleet + colony ships, and then blow up the AI HWs before they wave again (or even if they wave again it is still probably sub-mk2 progress even with one AI HW down unless you're really unlucky on data center count). The savegame in question is one where I was going to capture all the planets before winning. The most time efficient strategy ended up being "kill everything except command centers while at low AIP then quickly expand to take over all the planets as quickly as possible after a wave". For emphasis on how little having to take a few extra planets will affect this strategy, I attached a screenshot of a win after blowing up both AI HWs where I legitimately have 89 AIP post-victory. I was even kicking myself for taking two too many planets and there were 3 data centers still standing. No superterminal used. That's only because I accidentally blew it up though or I may have wasted 10 minutes so I had floor progress by the time the second HW blew up. |
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With the changes I think are currently going in, you will (in the words of Sean Connery) Rue The Day ;) |
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I have to say, I love the idea and the concept seem like it can add a lot, but I'm not sure it's going to slow things down very much. It would be cool, if they don't already do this, if they were fairly tough (wormhole guard postish tough) and acted like a superterminal but with a wave size based on AIP and starting HW count, so you can't just snipe the generators quickly after blowing up every data center and coprocessor on the map. At least that way it would give it sort of an epic feel instead of just being another boring ball of HP that's in the way of the AI HWs (like the core FFs on HWs) and is blandly over in a minute or less. Maybe make the different types all a bit different in how they react upon the planet being captured. Guess I'll see how it goes for now at least when the update is out. |
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Well, one thing to keep in mind is that taking out these generators will require taking the planet, which means ticking off any relevant counter-attack posts and/or raid engines, etc. But if it does still give you too easy of an experience there are ways to make it react more strongly to the destruction of a shield generator ;) |
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This development sounds... ominous. I'm currently in the process of trying to take every planet on the map (80, 7.6d), and since I only have a few free hours each week every time I play there are huge changes, some of which end up with rather comical results - bugged waves and the addition of counterattack posts, for example. I've taken to over fortification as a solution, since I didn't feel like playing conservative and just wiping out guard posts. Anyway, it'll be interesting to see what the solution to planet hopping is, since even the standard (conservative) strategy is to find a choke, take or neuter everything behind it, then fortify and deep-strike. Aggressive players just skip the first few steps. As a result, it sounds like whatever Chris is cooking up may substantially change the way the entire game unfolds. |
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"it sounds like whatever Chris is cooking up may substantially change the way the entire game unfolds." I think he feels like something's missing unless that happens at least once a month ;) |
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One thing to keep in mind is that I can always make the game hard by just cranking it up to difficulty 10 and playing against a backdoor hacker and technologist sledge combo. I'll probably randomly die at some point to a bomber wave. The problem right now is that what I do during a game has pretty much all been determined by the time I hit "start game". It feels like a solved puzzle. I can trivially make the experience not easy, but that doesn't mean it is deep. Right now every game I seriously try to win is pretty much 5-10 minutes of planning more or less the same plan at the start every time and then however many hours of executing that plan it takes after that with little to no extra decision making, with only a few exceptions (such as the AI getting FFBs or etherjets midgame). |
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Even not knowing where the AI homeworlds are? By the way, have you tried it with the do-not-show-unexplored-planets thing on? |
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Suzera, I don't think many people are able to accomplish what you are describing. Or at least they don't realize they can, yet. What you describe is simply a problem to be solved, but it's not something where we're likely to hit every last aspect of it. The release notes for the changes I'm making in 4.043 are in, and they should solve a fair bit of this, especially for most players. If you're this skilled, though, I might suggest you ought to be playing on difficulty 8 or thereabouts, anyway. Right now you're able to defend yourself AND attack with only the resources from very few planets, which is atypical as well; it likely means you've not found the sweet spot of difficulty yet. That said, there is definitely an exploitative behavior there, too. But one step at a time. This is a good first step, and we'll see where it goes over the coming weeks and/or months, as the case may be. I'm marking this as resolved, though, because the core query here IS, and the larger discussion is something that's going to be altered significantly by the next release. Feel free to open a new issue with your thoughts upon encountering the new stuff. |
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I have done it with do not show explored worlds. It just adds a bit of time and is a very uninteresting difference because it turns into risklessly-until-they-scout-what-I-need-scouted sending 1 scout (or a set if I want to go more than 1 deep because of a one-off offshoot) from the home worlds to the next warp links my fleet ball is at every time. Half the time I know exactly where the AI HWs will be at the start anyway due to how the generator usually places them. The times I don't know exactly which, I have a pretty good idea between 3 or 4 locations. Alternately, it turns into "spend 3k knowledge for mk 3 scouts, scount entire map for 5-10 minutes, then do stuff". Also not very interesting. The reason I am able to defend myself with so few planets is BECAUSE I have so few planets that I don't ever cross over the doubling of difficulty line that is mk 2 waves until maybe after winning the game. That is, unless I knowingly choose a technologist of something, but that is still doable on a floor AIP game even still. Perhaps part/most of the problem is that the AI is pretty much non-reactive to what players are doing in any real sense, which leads to a static unchanging strategy the entire game. |
| Date Modified | Username | Field | Change |
|---|---|---|---|
| Dec 1, 2010 5:36 pm | Suzera | New Issue | |
| Dec 1, 2010 5:38 pm | keith.lamothe | Note Added: 0004816 | |
| Dec 1, 2010 5:47 pm | Suzera | Note Added: 0004817 | |
| Dec 1, 2010 5:49 pm | Suzera | Note Edited: 0004817 | |
| Dec 1, 2010 5:49 pm | Suzera | Note Edited: 0004817 | |
| Dec 1, 2010 5:49 pm | Suzera | Note Edited: 0004817 | |
| Dec 1, 2010 5:50 pm | Suzera | Note Edited: 0004817 | |
| Dec 1, 2010 6:11 pm | Suzera | Note Edited: 0004817 | |
| Dec 1, 2010 7:43 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Note Added: 0004838 | |
| Dec 1, 2010 7:43 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Assigned To | => Chris_McElligottPark |
| Dec 1, 2010 7:43 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Status | new => feedback |
| Dec 1, 2010 8:28 pm | Suzera | Note Added: 0004841 | |
| Dec 1, 2010 8:28 pm | Suzera | Status | feedback => assigned |
| Dec 1, 2010 8:32 pm | Suzera | Note Edited: 0004841 | |
| Dec 1, 2010 8:34 pm | Suzera | Note Edited: 0004841 | |
| Dec 1, 2010 8:49 pm | Suzera | Note Edited: 0004841 | |
| Dec 1, 2010 8:50 pm | Suzera | Note Edited: 0004841 | |
| Dec 1, 2010 8:51 pm | Suzera | Note Edited: 0004841 | |
| Dec 1, 2010 8:54 pm | Suzera | Note Edited: 0004841 | |
| Dec 1, 2010 8:55 pm | Suzera | Note Edited: 0004841 | |
| Dec 1, 2010 9:42 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Note Added: 0004845 | |
| Dec 1, 2010 10:06 pm | Suzera | Note Added: 0004849 | |
| Dec 1, 2010 10:22 pm | Spikey00 | Note Added: 0004850 | |
| Dec 1, 2010 10:51 pm | Vinraith | Note Added: 0004852 | |
| Dec 1, 2010 10:59 pm | Spikey00 | Note Added: 0004853 | |
| Dec 1, 2010 11:05 pm | Vinraith | Note Edited: 0004852 | |
| Dec 1, 2010 11:20 pm | Suzera | Note Added: 0004854 | |
| Dec 1, 2010 11:36 pm | Suzera | Note Edited: 0004854 | |
| Dec 1, 2010 11:39 pm | Suzera | Note Edited: 0004854 | |
| Dec 1, 2010 11:41 pm | Suzera | Note Edited: 0004854 | |
| Dec 1, 2010 11:47 pm | Vinraith | Note Added: 0004855 | |
| Dec 1, 2010 11:49 pm | Vinraith | Note Edited: 0004855 | |
| Dec 1, 2010 11:52 pm | Vinraith | Note Edited: 0004855 | |
| Dec 1, 2010 11:55 pm | Suzera | Note Added: 0004856 | |
| Dec 2, 2010 10:17 am | Chris_McElligottPark | Note Added: 0004866 | |
| Dec 2, 2010 11:02 am | Suzera | Note Added: 0004870 | |
| Dec 2, 2010 11:04 am | Suzera | Note Edited: 0004870 | |
| Dec 2, 2010 11:05 am | Suzera | File Added: BOOM.png | |
| Dec 2, 2010 11:06 am | Suzera | Note Edited: 0004870 | |
| Dec 2, 2010 11:07 am | Suzera | Note Edited: 0004870 | |
| Dec 2, 2010 11:07 am | Suzera | Note Edited: 0004870 | |
| Dec 2, 2010 11:14 am | Suzera | Note Edited: 0004870 | |
| Dec 2, 2010 11:47 am | keith.lamothe | Note Added: 0004882 | |
| Dec 2, 2010 2:35 pm | Suzera | Note Added: 0004898 | |
| Dec 2, 2010 2:37 pm | Suzera | Note Edited: 0004898 | |
| Dec 2, 2010 2:37 pm | keith.lamothe | Note Added: 0004899 | |
| Dec 2, 2010 2:46 pm | ShadowOTE | Note Added: 0004900 | |
| Dec 2, 2010 2:50 pm | keith.lamothe | Note Added: 0004901 | |
| Dec 2, 2010 3:14 pm | Suzera | Note Added: 0004903 | |
| Dec 2, 2010 3:15 pm | Suzera | Note Edited: 0004903 | |
| Dec 2, 2010 3:35 pm | keith.lamothe | Note Added: 0004904 | |
| Dec 2, 2010 4:29 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Note Added: 0004910 | |
| Dec 2, 2010 4:29 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Status | assigned => resolved |
| Dec 2, 2010 4:29 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Fixed in Version | => 4.043 |
| Dec 2, 2010 4:29 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Resolution | open => fixed |
| Dec 2, 2010 6:03 pm | Suzera | Note Added: 0004919 | |
| Dec 2, 2010 6:04 pm | Suzera | Note Edited: 0004919 | |
| Dec 2, 2010 6:06 pm | Suzera | Note Edited: 0004919 | |
| Dec 2, 2010 6:06 pm | Suzera | Note Edited: 0004919 | |
| Dec 2, 2010 6:08 pm | Suzera | Note Edited: 0004919 | |
| Dec 2, 2010 6:19 pm | Suzera | Note Edited: 0004919 |
