View Issue Details
| ID | Project | Category | Date Submitted | Last Update | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 0021397 | AI War 2 | Balance Issue | Jul 13, 2019 10:13 am | Jul 16, 2019 11:56 am | |
| Reporter | Exlium | Assigned To | Dominus Arbitrationis | ||
| Status | resolved | Resolution | fixed | ||
| Product Version | 0.875 Counterattacks You Can Taste | ||||
| Fixed in Version | 0.876 Counterattacks Ate My Waves | ||||
| Summary | 0021397: Massive counter attack scaling from minimal losses | ||||
| Description | I went into a planet to trim some of the threat that was sitting right outside one of my planets. I had only lost a couple space planes (mirages) and raiders but each ship I lost was giving the counter attack +3 strength or so. That seems even more overtuned than the reprisal wave system. I don't know how I'm supposed to hunt down threat like in the first game without making another counter attack thats even bigger. Also neutering planets is impossible as well because stopping the counter attack involves killing the command station and obviously you can't kill every planet you have a scrap in. I'm going to include a save where I attack Tertius and you can watch how much it climbs everytime one ship dies. I even left the frigates out of the fight because I figured losing a frigate would increase it a lot more. This is on difficulty 7 and I only have 55 AIP (which I feel should impact the strength of counter attacks but it probably doesn't). | ||||
| Tags | No tags attached. | ||||
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A relevant possible oddity. "Basically as you lose ships against a planet, it will build up an increasingly-strong force that it will want to send against you in a counterattack. If it doesn't reach the minimum threshold of scariness for the difficulty of that AI, then it won't even tell you about it." From the release notes. For Diff 7, that threshold appears to be: counterattack_min_strength="35000" I have been seeing the Counter Attack notifications with small values on Diff 7, such as 0.5 Strength (display value). It appears then that the player can be hit with more Counter Attacks than intended? EDIT: Definitely not working. Losing a single V-Wing on an AI planet will cause a Counter Attack from it. |
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Some details from that save: Starts out as a Counter Attack Strength of 21. Player Strength on planet is 27. Losing all of the Player units (disabled reinforcements) results in a Counter Attack Strength of 308. Player Units are Mark 4, planet is Mark 4. A Parasite Citadel and Transport Flagship are crippled. Default Strikecraft scaling. Some Mark 5 AI units are being Parasited, but not many. === Random Calculations === Player Unit Count: 104 Raiders (internal Strength 43), 182 Mirages (Strength 20), 1 Parasite Citadel (5500, 4x Cripple Multiplier), 1 Transport Flagship (990). 4472 Raider Strength, 3640 Mirage Strength, 22,000 Citadel Strength, 990 Transport Flagship Strength for total 31,102 internal. This is Mark 1. Calculating the Strength values of Mark 4 Raiders makes them to be 110 (total 11,440) , Mark 4 Mirages is 49 (total 8918). The ai_cost_to_purchase of a Raider is 15, and a Mirage is 6. Cost does not increase with Mark, so if the strength a player loses is collected, then spent on units... Losing a single Mark 4 Raider here would let the AI purchase 7 (770 Strength) of its own, and losing a single Mark 4 Mirage would let it purchase 8 of its own. (400 Strength). Losing the Citadel (5500, 4x Multiplier) would let it purchase 1466 Raiders (Strength 161,260) , or 3666 (Strength 176,400) Mirages, all Mark 4. So the Player losing the Citadel, Raiders and Mirages grants the AI a total of...42358 Strength, which if converted into Budget would purchase 2824 Mark 4 Raiders, which then have a Strength total of 310,000, which in game is displayed as 310. Very similar to what that save causes. Conclusion: The Strikecraft Multipliers are causing what is normally a fair purchase for the AI (15 budget coins for roughly 15 strength of units) to become rather crazy (it now pays 15 coins for 43 Strength). Each Player Strikecraft dying contributes a far greater amount of budget to the AI, which it can purchase far more scary stuff: Normally, 1 Raider dying would let the AI purchase 1 Raider in return. With the default Strikecraft settings, that 1 Player Raider contributes another Strength, converted into Budget Coins to purchase almost 3 AI Raiders, all of whom are about 2.5x as powerful as their cost suggests. |
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counterattack_min_strength is now properly respected, so you won't get a counterattack if you lose a single fleetship somewhere |
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I just added a new value for ships that shows their base strength. If you can make sure it is the right value (It goes to the CSV file, or you can call it in the code), then I can look at changing the salvage to be based off of that instead of the current strength. |
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* Counterattacks now build strength based on the base strength of the destroyed ships, before multipliers. This drastically reduces the AI's unintended advantage when you raise the multipliers. |
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Noting here since the discussion was all Discord, that this seems to be very much improved, though I am a little suspicious that there's...possibly something wrong? Doing more math checks seems to be fine in every case except that save, where it's always a bit off (but not majorly so). |
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I've just put in some more changes that should fix a thing where it was still using the health and shields from higher marks to calculate strength in a way that was not helpful. Maybe fixed now? |
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From the commit note it sounds like a Mark 1 and Mark 5 unit should grant the AI the same Counter Attack Strength? Testing 40 V-Wings, Mark 1 and Mark 5 is showing a small difference in the result. Mark 5 is somehow only 30% higher. Dominus mentioned a bit something about...the DPS multiplier for the calculation. If I compare the Strength Value results of a purely Mark 1 V-Wing (15), and a Mark 1 V-Wing with Mark 5 damage (19), I find that 30% higher value exactly. Fairly confusing subject. I'll get more data and add it. EDIT: Okay so, sacrificing 40 MK1 V-Wings to a Diff 7 AI Mark 1 Planet produces a Counter Attack Strength (CAS) of 0.550. Calculating the Strength of a MK1 V-Wing, with MK3 damage has it about 10% higher. Sacrificing 40 MK3 V-Wings produces a CAS of 0.639. (A bit more than 10% but close). Calculating the Strength of a MK1 V-Wing, with MK5 damage has it about 30% higher. Sacrificing 40 MK5 V-Wings produces a CAS of 0.717. (Almost exactly dead on). So it seems DPS change with Mark is still included. |
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Oops, sorry -- thanks for catching that, it should work now. |
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Indeed it does! All numbers are exactly as expected now. |
| Date Modified | Username | Field | Change |
|---|---|---|---|
| Jul 13, 2019 10:13 am | Exlium | New Issue | |
| Jul 13, 2019 10:13 am | Exlium | File Added: InsaneScaling.save | |
| Jul 15, 2019 11:41 am | RocketAssistedPuffin | Note Added: 0052232 | |
| Jul 15, 2019 12:01 pm | RocketAssistedPuffin | Note Added: 0052233 | |
| Jul 15, 2019 12:20 pm | RocketAssistedPuffin | Note Edited: 0052233 | |
| Jul 15, 2019 12:42 pm | RocketAssistedPuffin | Note Edited: 0052233 | |
| Jul 15, 2019 12:45 pm | RocketAssistedPuffin | Note Edited: 0052233 | |
| Jul 15, 2019 1:36 pm | RocketAssistedPuffin | Note Edited: 0052232 | |
| Jul 15, 2019 4:31 pm | Dominus Arbitrationis | Note Added: 0052237 | |
| Jul 15, 2019 6:33 pm | Dominus Arbitrationis | Note Added: 0052238 | |
| Jul 15, 2019 8:21 pm | Dominus Arbitrationis | Assigned To | => Dominus Arbitrationis |
| Jul 15, 2019 8:21 pm | Dominus Arbitrationis | Status | new => resolved |
| Jul 15, 2019 8:21 pm | Dominus Arbitrationis | Resolution | open => fixed |
| Jul 15, 2019 8:21 pm | Dominus Arbitrationis | Fixed in Version | => 0.876 Counterattacks Ate My Waves |
| Jul 15, 2019 8:21 pm | Dominus Arbitrationis | Note Added: 0052239 | |
| Jul 16, 2019 10:37 am | RocketAssistedPuffin | Note Added: 0052246 | |
| Jul 16, 2019 10:47 am | Chris_McElligottPark | Note Added: 0052250 | |
| Jul 16, 2019 11:31 am | RocketAssistedPuffin | Note Added: 0052260 | |
| Jul 16, 2019 11:36 am | RocketAssistedPuffin | Note Edited: 0052260 | |
| Jul 16, 2019 11:38 am | Chris_McElligottPark | Note Added: 0052263 | |
| Jul 16, 2019 11:45 am | RocketAssistedPuffin | Note Edited: 0052260 | |
| Jul 16, 2019 11:56 am | RocketAssistedPuffin | Note Added: 0052264 |
