View Issue Details
| ID | Project | Category | Date Submitted | Last Update | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 0022348 | AI War 2 | Gameplay Idea | Dec 10, 2019 12:03 pm | Dec 13, 2019 9:12 pm | |
| Reporter | StarKelp | Assigned To | |||
| Status | resolved | Resolution | fixed | ||
| Product Version | 1.013 Menacing Messages From The Machine | ||||
| Fixed in Version | 1.016 Back From Beta | ||||
| Summary | 0022348: Outguard Revamp | ||||
| Description | Creating its own post here to list every change that has been added so it can be approved before attempting to commit such a large code overhaul. Very hesitant for my first major push to be done without prior approval, and all that. Gameplay Changes Each Outguard now comes with a number of summons. These summons scale with the total amount of earnt AIP. After use, you must wait a period of time before summoning the same one again. In addition, as long as it is under capacity, it will slowly rebuild its used fleets, giving you further uses in the future. Base values are as follows; Offensive/Utility: 5 minute cooldown, 15 minute recharge, 10 minute duration Defense/Stationary: 5 minute cooldown, 20 minute recharge, 10 minute duration Donated To Player: 5 minute cooldown, 30 minute recharge, infinite duration Outguard units now inherit techs properly. Turret spawning mercs are now spawnt between your command station and a hostile wormhole on a friendly planet. Turret spawning mercs are now spawnt near the center of the planet on a hostile planet. Turrets will now spawn around each other instead of on each other. Code Changes Unit tags will now attempt to search by tag first, and internal name second as a backup. A multitude of new xml tags to configure nearly all of the changes. (Many older Outguard units retain some older, no longer used values, for compatibility's sake.) New Outguard Spire Archivist, potent forcefields and beams Democratic Demolitionists, grenade launcher turrets and ships Hydran Hobbyist, an extremely redundant hydra starship with low damage and high disabling capabilities | ||||
| Tags | No tags attached. | ||||
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Some thoughts as I read this: "Each Outguard now comes with a number of summons. These summons scale with the total amount of earnt AIP." I like this as long as it doesn't matter when I capture them. Aka, if I capture them and then get 200 AIP that gives me more summons, it should be the same as if I captured them with 200 AIP prior to it. "After use, you must wait a period of time before summoning the same one again." Thumbs up. "In addition, as long as it is under capacity, it will slowly rebuild its used fleets, giving you further uses in the future." I'm not 100% sure what this means. Your uses recharge if you haven't maxed out how many times you've used it, is that right? I'm iffy on things that give big advantages to using wall-clock time to wait. But this is something that can be tuned in the future, and seems fine for an initial version. "Base values are as follows;" Wow that whole section is great, particularly with the bugfixes! "Unit tags will now attempt to search by tag first, and internal name second as a backup." That seems fine to me. "A multitude of new xml tags to configure nearly all of the changes. (Many older Outguard units retain some older, no longer used values, for compatibility's sake.)" Thumbs up to both. "Spire Archivist, potent forcefields and beams Democratic Demolitionists, grenade launcher turrets and ships Hydran Hobbyist, an extremely redundant hydra starship with low damage and high disabling capabilities" Oooh, that's very exciting! :D |
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'I like this as long as it doesn't matter when I capture them. Aka, if I capture them and then get 200 AIP that gives me more summons, it should be the same as if I captured them with 200 AIP prior to it.' Yep, it'll factor in all prior AIP. "In addition, as long as it is under capacity, it will slowly rebuild its used fleets, giving you further uses in the future." Example: Outguard has 3/3 charges. I use one. I get a 300 second cooldown until I can use again, and a 1200 cooldown until I get another charge. I can keep using my charges when off cooldown, but charges only come back much later. |
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Okay, that all sounds good. The cooldown for how long it needs to be before the other charges build back up is something that might need to be MUCH higher to prevent people from using wall-clock-time to gain an advantage, but we'll cross that bridge when we come to it. The logic is sound, either way, I think. And the question of balance of that bit just requires playtesting with enough people. |
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I will point out that people are still beating the game on 10, and if we buff the outguard to make them more usable (and "making them usable" really counts as a buff since noone uses them) then we should have buffs to the AI or nerfs to the player to compensate. |
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I added this to the wiki, now that the wiki is something we can all log into again: https://wiki.arcengames.com/index.php?title=AI_War_2:_Pre-And-Post_Launch_Polish#Outguard_Rework And in terms of buffs/nerfs to the AI or player, I do agree, although I am feeling like it's only on difficulty 7+ or 8+ that this is a thing right now. Honestly I don't get a sense for what will feel the most fair yet to players, but it seems like the AI needs to get some sort of economic boost since the player just did. Or something along those lines. This isn't a case of the AI lagging in strategy at the moment, but of the player just getting a straight-up buff of free economic bits. |
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One note -- I'm going to push this back one release, to make sure we can do more internal testing of this first. |
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I pushed a few changes related to the hacking part (AIP cost, strong response) tonight, but it didn't seem enough to make them 'hard' to get either. Another 50-100% increase in Response strength should help make holding on for those last 30 seconds actually difficult. In the mid term, we could include a new Instigator that causes all hacked beacons to spit out a threatwave of their unit type every 60 seconds? Unsure about potential long term ideas. The ai economic side of things is still a fairly alien concept to me. |
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To some extent, I think that the long-term stuff with the AI isn't really your problem directly with this. You're working on essentially a buff to the player, and it's the sort of thing we want players to want to use. That goes one of two ways. Either in the first way, using it makes things way easier and this is an exploit. Bad. Or either in the second way, this is a core part of the game deserving of the sidebar status it gets, and players not using at least some outguard are likely to get their butts handed to them. The actual act of getting outguard is more directly related, and you've been focused on that, which I think is good -- it has a direct impact on how many outguard people choose to get, and thus also a good risk/reward aspect to it. But if we take the assumption that people choose to take an outguard or two (or four or six, as the case may be in the long term), then the AI is going to need a buff in general. And there are other factors at play that would indicate the same, regardless of the outguard work. TLDR I think you're okay in terms of the scope of what you've been focused on with your concerns. |
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Re-commited with built-in spawning methods instead of custom-made ones as per Badger's note. Still tuned up to be bone-crushing. |
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Excellent, thanks! |
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Completed by the Celestial Kelp. |
| Date Modified | Username | Field | Change |
|---|---|---|---|
| Dec 10, 2019 12:03 pm | StarKelp | New Issue | |
| Dec 10, 2019 12:03 pm | StarKelp | File Added: Outguard Changes.zip | |
| Dec 10, 2019 5:09 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Note Added: 0054910 | |
| Dec 10, 2019 5:14 pm | StarKelp | Note Added: 0054911 | |
| Dec 10, 2019 5:17 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Note Added: 0054912 | |
| Dec 10, 2019 5:26 pm | BadgerBadger | Note Added: 0054913 | |
| Dec 10, 2019 5:39 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Note Added: 0054915 | |
| Dec 10, 2019 5:41 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Note Added: 0054916 | |
| Dec 11, 2019 1:20 am | StarKelp | Note Added: 0054927 | |
| Dec 11, 2019 10:50 am | StarKelp | File Deleted: Outguard Changes.zip | |
| Dec 11, 2019 4:40 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Note Added: 0054939 | |
| Dec 11, 2019 6:25 pm | StarKelp | Note Added: 0054953 | |
| Dec 11, 2019 6:55 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Note Added: 0054959 | |
| Dec 13, 2019 9:12 pm | RocketAssistedPuffin | Status | new => resolved |
| Dec 13, 2019 9:12 pm | RocketAssistedPuffin | Resolution | open => fixed |
| Dec 13, 2019 9:12 pm | RocketAssistedPuffin | Fixed in Version | => 1.016 Back From Beta |
| Dec 13, 2019 9:12 pm | RocketAssistedPuffin | Note Added: 0054990 |
