View Issue Details
|ID||Project||Category||Date Submitted||Last Update|
|0023249||AI War 2||Bug - Gameplay||Jun 3, 2020 6:19 pm||Aug 11, 2020 8:02 am|
|Product Version||2.048 Bugfixes|
|Summary||0023249: AI Great-Turrets are not more powerful than player turrets|
|Description||I was under the impression that they were supposed to be more powerful than player turrets (3x health and 5x attack I believe it was), but with a bit less range (when not infinite).|
They are lacking the increase in attack power and health that are supposed to have.
I used the attached save to compare some Mark 4 AI Pike Great-Turrets (ex. on More Old Gum) with my own Pike Turrets (anywhere) and the only difference is that the AI Great-Turret has less range and does not get increased health from an increase in Mark level (I know that this last bit is a known bug and already fixed). Comparing my Mk4 Seeker Turrets with the AI Seeker Great-Turrets on Cadence VI, they too have identical attack values as well as a lack of health beyond the Mk-level health bug.
|Tags||No tags attached.|
Jun 3, 2020 6:19 pm
NotSoGreatTurret.save (1,479,060 bytes)
Just a quick confirmation that Great-Turrets are still lacking the increase in attack and health they are supposed to have. In the 'NotGreatTurret' save file the Mark 7 AI Translocator Great-Turret (on Carabalilo near the orange AI Homeworld) has the same attack as a player-owned Mark 7 Great-Turret. Interestingly, its health is just under that of a Mark 4 player-owned Translocator Turret.
NotGreatTurret.save (293,015 bytes)
For next version:
* Fixed bug where AI Great-Turrets were not getting their intended 3x health and 5x DPS relative to human turrets.
Keith, some information for you.
Player Turrets got consolidated into 0.2x the cap, but 5x the power for convenience and performance reasons, on September 7th, 2019. https://wiki.arcengames.com/index.php?title=AI_War_2:The_Refinement_of_Fleets#Player_Ship_Caps
AI Turrets became Great Turrets on January 1st, 2020, for performance reasons. https://wiki.arcengames.com/index.php?title=AI_War_2:The_Grand_New_AI#AI_Great-Turrets
The first part, for Player Turrets notes this:
"For all AI turrets, things are left the same, but for player turrets the following changes:
multiplier_to_all_costs is 5.
multiplier_to_all_healths is 5.
damage_multiplier_to_all_weapons is 5.
multiplier_to_all_fleet_caps is 0.2.
multiplier_to_all_scales is 3."
While the Great Turret part says this:
"All of the AI turrets were already different from the player turrets in that they generally have half the range of the player counterparts. Now we're taking it even further.
Mainly because turrets can't stack, and thus will grind the game to a halt if the AI builds full caps of them at the sort of strength and costs that we had them at previously, we've condensed them to being essentially like stacks-in-one right from the start.
All of the AI turrets are called Great-Turrets instead of just turrets, and they have 5x the cost and firepower and health that the player versions do (while still having half the range)."
It seems Chris got confused and/or forgot that the player versions got boosted before, since he doesn't mention anything except the range difference. That'd also explain the odd name, since the AI ones are weaker.
So to me this seems more a release note mistake, than the AI Great Turrets being intended to be even stronger than the player ones individually. I'd also note the AI ones in terms of cost and the like were balanced as they are now, and this change'd make AI planets much stronger.
I'd add on that they only have 3x health of the base XML entries, because it was found that some Turrets like Fortified Tesla took a very long time to ever clear out.
One last thing:
This is the base damage of a Pike Turret. For a player turret, * this by 5, so 2,080. With the AI Turrets getting an extra 5x damage on that, it becomes 10,400.
Most strikecraft don't actually have that much health, meaning most will have mass overkill. That damage is before any multipliers, like the anti-armour one of a Pike, so the damage'd become 31,200. Unless the player has stacks going on (which can be disabled a bit), if these Turrets stay that way, then get re-costed accordingly (meaning fewer, stronger ones), I'd imagine the balance would go drastically the other way due to the damage they're costed for being often wasted.
Mark Levels change things around, but it seems that if you're the same Mark or lower than the Turret, the Turret has notable overkill.
Just some points.
All I'm gonna say on this matter is that if you are adding yet another 5x damage to some of those AI turrets you absolutely are going to have people screaming about nigh impenetrable nests. The AI *still* stacks 20+ turrets in clusters and when those turrets are a mix of parasitic and multi-shot/AoE happy friends you are basically forced into clearing them with battle station siege tactics already with maybe some heavy frigate assistance if they aren't subject to a massive damage bonus by said turrets.
They already take a bit of time to clear. So I'd be careful about screwing with the health values too much. Damage though is much touchier and ramping it more than 2x is probably not the best of ideas if you aren't looking to force players into combat building turrets or heavily favoring infinite range units. I really would suggest taking your changes here for a spin with a turtle AI.
||Thanks for the feedback; I've undone those changes for the next version and I'll ask Chris for clarification on whether any numeric changes are actually needed here, or maybe just change "Great-Turret" back to "Turret" in the naming.|
||I guess that we just need to change Great-Turret back to Turret. Thanks for all the history, Puffin -- it is indeed very very hard for me to keep track of all of the history with these!|
||I think this is the first time anyone noticed/mentioned it, so no worries. It never even occurred to me either, any of this until just now.|
* The AI "Great-Turrets" are now simply called "Turrets" again, as at this point balance-wise the player turrets and AI turrets are similar.
|Jun 3, 2020 6:19 pm||GreatYng||New Issue|
|Jun 3, 2020 6:19 pm||GreatYng||File Added: NotSoGreatTurret.save|
|Jul 7, 2020 5:43 pm||GreatYng||File Added: NotGreatTurret.save|
|Jul 7, 2020 5:43 pm||GreatYng||Note Added: 0057509|
|Aug 9, 2020 1:13 pm||keith.lamothe||Note Added: 0058009|
|Aug 9, 2020 2:06 pm||RocketAssistedPuffin||Note Added: 0058010|
|Aug 9, 2020 2:23 pm||RocketAssistedPuffin||Note Added: 0058011|
|Aug 9, 2020 4:38 pm||CRCGamer||Note Added: 0058012|
|Aug 10, 2020 7:29 am||keith.lamothe||Note Added: 0058019|
|Aug 10, 2020 4:35 pm||x4000Bughunter||Note Added: 0058032|
|Aug 10, 2020 5:33 pm||RocketAssistedPuffin||Note Added: 0058034|
|Aug 11, 2020 8:02 am||keith.lamothe||Note Added: 0058039|
|Aug 11, 2020 8:02 am||keith.lamothe||Assigned To||=> keith.lamothe|
|Aug 11, 2020 8:02 am||keith.lamothe||Status||new => resolved|
|Aug 11, 2020 8:02 am||keith.lamothe||Resolution||open => fixed|
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