View Issue Details
| ID | Project | Category | Date Submitted | Last Update | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 0023398 | AI War 2 | Bug - Gameplay | Jul 15, 2020 4:49 pm | Jul 16, 2020 4:04 pm | |
| Reporter | ParadoxSong | Assigned To | BadgerBadger | ||
| Status | assigned | Resolution | open | ||
| Product Version | 2.097 Below Minimum | ||||
| Summary | 0023398: The Command Station rebuild timer can be bypassed by scrapping the Command Station. | ||||
| Description | With the talk around making the command station rebuild time longer on higher difficulties, I figured it's probably not intentional you can scrap the ruins of a command station to bypass, at the very least, the "enemies are here" timer on command station ruins. I do not know if this extends to some rebuild situation where there are no enemies on the planet - Until today, I didn't think it might even exist. To reproduce: Attack any planet. Build a command station to "foothold" an enemy (now neutral) planet. Have it be destroyed before completing it. 300s rebuild timer starts. Delete the command station, build it again from the Build menu. The Command station will immediately start building. This is not currently a very impactful exploit, but it could be very powerful with an over-marked Military station in the early game or midgame. | ||||
| Tags | No tags attached. | ||||
| related to | 0023387 | closed | BadgerBadger | Difficulty 10-10-10 Victory |
|
|
I think, perhaps if the timer is active on the remains of a command station, they should be un-scrappable. Otherwise we don't have many places to keep track of this info. |
|
|
You can do this kind of thing with any structure I believe. Minefields, Turrets, Forcefields, so on. If it's destroyed, the remains can be scrapped and a replacement started immediately. Some Turrets are cheaper than normal for rapid construction/beach heading purposes. There is a large increase in damage taken if something is under construction, but you can always do a series of Turret lines bit by bit before any enemy force reaches them if need be. Like a form of staggered retreat. I would suspect this exploit may be potentially useful with Warden Fleet behavior, in being unable to path to player owned planets (I recall they can still go there for a while I think, depending on their force size, introduced so you can't snipe a Station then build your own to deny it entry. May well have forgotten bits however). Some information if relevant. |
|
|
I am planning on moving this timer to the Planet object, unless someone has an objection. |
|
|
Based on Puffin's notes, I think that basically any remains that are on a countdown timer should not be scrappable. This would prevent the various exploits he mentions, as well as various kinds of micro. Seems like that would solve a whole swathe of issues, and then there's just the one challenge of making command stations take longer before they can be rebuilt based on difficulty. |
|
|
I feel like "I can't scrap this structure because it's on a rebuild cooldown" is a very unintuitive mechanic. It feels very artificial and immersion breaking to me. I don't really have a problem with bypassing turret cooldowns by scrapping/rebuilding; why is that a problematic mechanic? Scrapping turrets and rebuilding elsewhere for some advantage is a very reasonable thing in a tower defense game. Command stations are different though. |
|
|
Yeah, I can accept command stations have timer before being rebuilt, but every remains? That would make me straight up uninstall the game. Too Many cases where the AI can snipe your "in-building" structures and make them remain. It's bad enough that the cooldown has been increased from 60 to like ten times that. I kind of worry the timer thing will drag down the pace of the game, notably it'll removes or severely hinder the ability to build command station on enemy planet which is a kind of fun tactic to do. |
|
|
Alternatively, you could use the already-implemented mechanics of "AI get hunter ships when a command station is killed" or "gain AIP on death" and activate them at higher difficulties? |
|
|
I agree with Badger, turrets/defences would be overkill. I disagree with Arnaud, ultimately, if you're beach heading with a command station that's the risk you should be taking - easier to capture the planet, but potentially results in it being non-contributing for several minutes if you mess it up. Ultimately, there are ships(FFs) and Battlestations for beach heading, and you should be using them instead. |
|
|
Okay, fair enough I suppose. On the turret thing, the logic is mostly: 1. Rebuild timer keeps your stuff from being insta-sniped over and over again, and keeps engineers out of active battles where they can't actually help something. 2. So scrapping and rebuilding does make some sense, in that basically you want to override that. 3. That's a huge pain in the rear, and feels like an exploit rather than part of the full game. That's a bummer, but I guess an edge case. 4. Command station being something that is up and down more frequently does feel thematically and mechanically different. So making that harder to rebuild by having a thing on the planet makes sense. |
|
|
I think the rule would be "The command station rebuild timer starts if a fully built command station dies to anything (including scrapping) with substantial enemy forces on the planet, it starts a long timer". Note that timer is going to be "The current game mechanics" (ie 60 seconds w/o enemies, otherwise 360) on most difficulties. One result of this is if you are trying to beachhead and the command station gets sniped mid build, the harder mechanism isn't going to kick in. Thoughts? Thoughts? I'm not sure I like turning Shark Plots on by default for high difficulties. |
|
|
I'm a big fan of that. |
|
|
Would you keep the 300 seconds rebuild delay if the command station get a timer? Rather than the 60 one that is far less encouraging to scrap-then-build? (especially when AI is snipping new turrets). |
|
|
My intent is not to change the turret mechanics at all, just the command station mechanics. |
|
|
Definitely a fan of the command station change. Addressing how people like to beachhead with the mid-build vs fully constructed command stations is a good compromise, without making it the preferred method for every situation. Feels like pulling the trigger on Shark-by-Default would miss the circumstances of the diff10 win too. If the command station change doesn't lead to long-term damage as hoped, it's probably worth tinkering with Kamikaze specifically, rather than all variants of the Hunter Fleet for Kamikaze's failings. |
| Date Modified | Username | Field | Change |
|---|---|---|---|
| Jul 15, 2020 4:49 pm | ParadoxSong | New Issue | |
| Jul 15, 2020 5:12 pm | BadgerBadger | Assigned To | => BadgerBadger |
| Jul 15, 2020 5:12 pm | BadgerBadger | Status | new => assigned |
| Jul 15, 2020 5:12 pm | BadgerBadger | Relationship added | related to 0023387 |
| Jul 15, 2020 6:04 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Note Added: 0057626 | |
| Jul 15, 2020 6:14 pm | RocketAssistedPuffin | Note Added: 0057627 | |
| Jul 15, 2020 6:58 pm | BadgerBadger | Note Added: 0057628 | |
| Jul 15, 2020 8:04 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Note Added: 0057630 | |
| Jul 15, 2020 10:23 pm | BadgerBadger | Note Added: 0057631 | |
| Jul 16, 2020 2:45 am | BadgerBadger | Note Edited: 0057631 | |
| Jul 16, 2020 3:15 am | ArnaudB | Note Added: 0057633 | |
| Jul 16, 2020 3:38 am | ArnaudB | Note Added: 0057634 | |
| Jul 16, 2020 9:15 am | ParadoxSong | Note Added: 0057636 | |
| Jul 16, 2020 9:34 am | Chris_McElligottPark | Note Added: 0057638 | |
| Jul 16, 2020 10:24 am | BadgerBadger | Note Added: 0057645 | |
| Jul 16, 2020 11:58 am | Chris_McElligottPark | Note Added: 0057647 | |
| Jul 16, 2020 3:38 pm | ArnaudB | Note Added: 0057652 | |
| Jul 16, 2020 3:40 pm | BadgerBadger | Note Added: 0057653 | |
| Jul 16, 2020 4:04 pm | ParadoxSong | Note Added: 0057654 |
