View Issue Details
| ID | Project | Category | Date Submitted | Last Update | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 0002802 | AI War 1 / Classic | Suggestion - AI Behavior And Tactics | Feb 13, 2011 9:26 pm | Feb 16, 2011 3:07 pm | |
| Reporter | TechSY730 | Assigned To | Chris_McElligottPark | ||
| Status | resolved | Resolution | fixed | ||
| Product Version | 5.000 | ||||
| Fixed in Version | 5.001 | ||||
| Summary | 0002802: Remove difficulties 8.3-10 tech level "head start", and move that to an AI modifier or an AI plot | ||||
| Description | The title. I have seen several players complain that 8.0 is now too easy, but the "head start" on tech level that 8.3 and beyond is too much "cheating" on the AI's part for them, and jumps the difficulty up disproportionately. The normal scaling of AI waves sizes, tech level cutoffs, and reinforcement rates makes it seem like 8.3 and 10 would still be plenty harder even without this change. Those who want the AI to get this "cheating" head start can manually ask for it in an AI modifier or AI plot. Considering there is no good way to emulate a "fair" 8.3 and beyond, (2x wave frequency will probably overshoot the difficulty too much, and a positive AI handicap for the AI currently does not effect wave size or frequency AFAIK) it seems like there should be some way to, and this would remove the need to emulate it in the firs place. | ||||
| Tags | No tags attached. | ||||
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Even if this jump in difficulty could be "fixed" by scaling down the Mk. lvl wave multipliers, the sheer fact that they start from Mk. II (even if balanced properly) is too much "cheating" of the rules for some players (myself included I might add) |
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Supported, although I still feel like 8.3-10 need the AI to be smarter as well as stronger/faster. |
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Not really what can be done to make them smarter. The devs have already put in most of the nasty, smart behaviors they can think of, and have them enabled by at most difficulty 8.0. Some of these behaviors are probabilistic though, so 8.3+ could have tweaked (read, nastier do deal with) probabilities. Also, various alerted and anger ranges and conditions for defending units of an 8.3+ AI could be tweaked too. In other words, to make 8.3+ smarter, existing behaviors would be tweaked, not full out new behaviors. Do you think that that the natural scaling of the AI is enough to make 8.3+ hard enough? EDIT: Another approach would to make new behaviors for the AI that the devs implement not be enabled on 8.0, but rather start on some difficulty above it. |
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I think separating starting mk level and AI difficulty is definetly a good idea, since it allows for a higher degree of control, and therefore more varied options in the game setup. With the tech level externalised, players can chose freely whether the AI is to be stronger overall (by moving up towards 10.0), or just significantly tougher in one aspect (mk level). It's a shame that not more can be done to make the AI challenging in ways other than "StrongerFasterMoreAndHigherLevel". |
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I think the goal of the difficulties was by 8.0, the AI already uses all the "tricks" it knows. After 8.0, they just get more things to pull them off with (though an extra tech level to work with is a little broken, extra units and a higher proportion of high mk. lvl planets seems like fair tools to give 8.3+ more of) EDIT: Even if more behaviors aren't added, 8.3+ can be made to seem smarter by tweaking some of the probabilistic parts of those behaviors. |
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I agree entirely, the tech level increase should be a plot/modifier. It just makes sense. Hah, I have an idea! How about *more AIs*? In that way, some can be strong, some can be high-tech, and some can have ridiculous toys! Alright, I'll just go over into my little corner and dream on...the exalted gentlemen of practical sense may take over in my stead. |
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More than two AIs would be awesome, but right now much of the game is built and balanced with the assumption of two AIs. (the tutorial is a specially coded exception) Changing that would require a lot of effort, for questionable returns (thanks to the fact that the AI team would get the same number of total planets, regaurdless of the number of AI players). It could lead to more frequent waves and more varied behavior, which would be nice. In any case, that sort of change would be a "distant future" type of change. |
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"I think the goal of the difficulties was by 8.0, the AI already uses all the "tricks" it knows. After 8.0, they just get more things to pull them off with (though an extra tech level to work with is a little broken, extra units and a higher proportion of high mk. lvl planets seems like fair tools to give 8.3+ more of)" That's true. Mostly by 7.0 actually, but pretty much completely by 8.0. "Even if more behaviors aren't added, 8.3+ can be made to seem smarter by tweaking some of the probabilistic parts of those behaviors." That's not true. Mostly they already used the smartest probabilities that don't cause them to fall into gap in the wall problems. If they don't, then eventually the probabilities will be tweaked for the existing difficulties. In general, about 8.0 its not about fairness. 8.3 and 8.6 were specifically added because some folks wanted the higher tech levels without fully jumping in difficulty to diff 9, actually, now that I think back. Remembering that, and thinking about this a bit more, I'm actually going to close this one as rejected. If you find 8.0 too easy and want a more linear increase than 8.3 gives you, then there's a simple and very gradated solution: give the AIs a positive handicap. If that doesn't do it for you, then I suggest one or more of the following: harder maps, harder AI types, harder minor factions, harder AI plots or AI modifiers, etc. There are all the tools there to make the difficulty you want. But if I change that 8.3/8.6 thing, that's going to upset a number of other players. |
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More than two AIs is never coming, by the way. It wouldn't do what you think. |
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I already mentioned that the handicaps are currently not scaling everything up like increasing difficulty would. I think I already made another report about that though. (EDIT: I did, see 0002226) So until they do, that is not quite an adequate solution. |
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Alas, the dream lies shattered in damnation! Cruel fates, harsh world! |
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The tech increase between 8.0 and 8.3 feels like the most detached yet all encompassing change in difficulty increase I can think of. Almost all other forms of difficulty (increase in waves, reinforcements, even increase in AI ability) feel very gradual from 8.0 below. Suddenly you get SMACKED with a difficulty increase that makes everything about the AI harder, rather then a specific aspect. Shizo waves are an AI modifier and they only influence waves. The tech increase effects waves, reinforcements, scripted events, spire story, and guardians, yet rather than make it an option it goes on the difficulty after "smartest" AI? Something just isn't adding up (for me) on why it can't be detached like other AI options. Perhaps I just don't understand? |
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Part of this is that the Mk. lvl wave multipliers need to be scaled down some. (Basically, the ratio of Mk. II : Mk. I ships that the AI would send given the same base wave size is too high right now). Once this is balanced some, the stupidly massive jump in difficulty won't be quite as massive. |
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If someone can put together a well though out argument on why having the smartest AI also be the cutoff point for right before the AI starts "cheating" is a bad idea, or can give a good argument that the current 8.0 is at too low of a difficulty to satisfactorily meet that cutoff point, or give a well though out argument about why relying on completely different settings to give a linear increase in difficulty when the difficulty level worked for that purpose setting worked for everything below 8.0 is a poor design choice, I will reopen this issue. Else, assuming they get AI handicaps to do what they are supposed to do, I will consider the alternate methods of increasing difficulty satisfactory. |
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One last reminder. If no one posts a good argument for why the alternatives proposed cannot be be a good replacement, why making difficulty scale in a different way than before and having to rely on other, previously unrelated options is now needed to make AI to scale like difficulty for lower values is a bad design choice, or why the "smartest AI" point and the "cheating AI" point should not be the same point, I will not reopen this issue. |
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Changed my mind, looking at this some more. * The tech level of the AI is now only inflated by 1 artificially when playing on greater than difficulty 9, rather than greater than difficulty 8. |
| Date Modified | Username | Field | Change |
|---|---|---|---|
| Feb 13, 2011 9:26 pm | TechSY730 | New Issue | |
| Feb 13, 2011 9:27 pm | TechSY730 | Description Updated | |
| Feb 13, 2011 9:30 pm | TechSY730 | Note Added: 0010329 | |
| Feb 13, 2011 9:32 pm | TechSY730 | Note Edited: 0010329 | |
| Feb 13, 2011 9:36 pm | TechSY730 | Category | Suggestion - Campaign Management And Setup => Suggestion - AI Behavior And Tactics |
| Feb 13, 2011 9:36 pm | Shrugging Khan | Note Added: 0010330 | |
| Feb 13, 2011 9:43 pm | TechSY730 | Note Added: 0010331 | |
| Feb 13, 2011 9:44 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Assigned To | => Chris_McElligottPark |
| Feb 13, 2011 9:44 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Status | new => considering |
| Feb 13, 2011 9:46 pm | TechSY730 | Note Edited: 0010331 | |
| Feb 13, 2011 9:47 pm | TechSY730 | Note Edited: 0010331 | |
| Feb 13, 2011 9:49 pm | Shrugging Khan | Note Added: 0010332 | |
| Feb 13, 2011 9:52 pm | TechSY730 | Note Added: 0010334 | |
| Feb 13, 2011 9:55 pm | TechSY730 | Note Edited: 0010334 | |
| Feb 13, 2011 9:55 pm | Shrugging Khan | Note Added: 0010335 | |
| Feb 13, 2011 10:01 pm | TechSY730 | Note Added: 0010338 | |
| Feb 13, 2011 10:02 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Note Added: 0010339 | |
| Feb 13, 2011 10:02 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Status | considering => closed |
| Feb 13, 2011 10:02 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Resolution | open => won't fix |
| Feb 13, 2011 10:02 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Note Added: 0010340 | |
| Feb 13, 2011 10:15 pm | TechSY730 | Note Added: 0010341 | |
| Feb 13, 2011 10:16 pm | Shrugging Khan | Note Added: 0010342 | |
| Feb 13, 2011 10:21 pm | TechSY730 | Note Edited: 0010341 | |
| Feb 13, 2011 11:05 pm | chemical_art | Note Added: 0010343 | |
| Feb 13, 2011 11:06 pm | chemical_art | Note Edited: 0010343 | |
| Feb 13, 2011 11:17 pm | TechSY730 | Note Added: 0010344 | |
| Feb 13, 2011 11:33 pm | TechSY730 | Note Added: 0010346 | |
| Feb 13, 2011 11:39 pm | TechSY730 | Note Edited: 0010346 | |
| Feb 13, 2011 11:39 pm | TechSY730 | Note Edited: 0010346 | |
| Feb 15, 2011 7:12 pm | TechSY730 | Note Added: 0010368 | |
| Feb 16, 2011 3:07 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Note Added: 0010391 | |
| Feb 16, 2011 3:07 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Status | closed => resolved |
| Feb 16, 2011 3:07 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Resolution | won't fix => fixed |
| Feb 16, 2011 3:07 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Fixed in Version | => 5.001 |
