View Issue Details

IDProjectCategoryLast Update
0003102AI War 1 / ClassicSuggestion - Balance TweaksMar 26, 2011 10:54 am
ReporterGarthor Assigned Tokeith.lamothe  
Status resolvedResolutionfixed 
Product Version5.007 
Summary0003102: AI uses far too many Electric Bombers in LotS waves
DescriptionThe AI seems to be using an utterly absurd number of Electric Bombers (and possibly other low-cap ship types) in attack waves from Light of the Spire events (and maybe exogalactic strikeforces). In one instance, one group consisted of around 33 each of normal-cap ships (such as bombers, fighters, etc.) and 22 Electric Bombers... about seven times as many as there should be given the cap, assuming the wave should've been composed of an equal cap-fraction of each ship type.

Alternatively, comparing kill totals from before and after acquiring the second shard, approximately 1000 Bombers were killed, compared to 550 Electric Bombers. The Bomber kill count is likely inflated by normally composed waves between the two saves, however.

Attached save is approximately in position to retrieve the second shard (survey ship just needs to be built at Disdesye). Good luck after that, though.
TagsNo tags attached.
Internal Weight

Activities

Garthor

Mar 25, 2011 2:54 am

reporter  

05-09.sav (390,051 bytes)

TechSY730

Mar 25, 2011 8:05 am

reporter   ~0011448

Are the exo-wormhole and the event wave spawning logic obeying ship cap ratios like normal waves do?

If not, oops.

keith.lamothe

Mar 25, 2011 10:52 am

administrator   ~0011449

The logic for event-attack composition (which is used for chase groups and exos) is completely different from the normal wave/reinforcement logic but is actually far more intentional about treating different ship types as having different values and operating within a fixed point budget. A few of the relevant rules:
- Bombers range from Medium Cutter for mkI (6 points) up through Heavy Corvette for mkV (32 points).
- Zenith Electric Bombers range from Medium Corvette for mkI (24 points) up through Heavy Frigate for mkV (128 points).
- Most exo groups split their points into 1/3rd for a lead ship, 1/3rd for escorts, and 1/3rd for pickets. The points are spent in that order and leftovers carry over.
- Pickets are only picked (no pun intended) from the bottom nine size classes (Heavy Corvette and down), and it can only pick a maximum of 32 from each of those classes (on high caps, 16 on normal and 8 on low). This generally means it will have points left over.
- Any points left over after pickets are chosen are run through the escort-picking routine repeatedly until it has zero points left or can't pick find anything it can afford.
- Escorts are picked only from Light Frigate and up; it:
-- Finds the highest size tier where 1/8th of the escort points can buy one of that tier, and buys three of those.
-- Finds the highest size tier where 1/16th of the escort points can buy one of that tier, and buys four of those. It is possible that this is the same size tier as the previous step.
-- Finds the highest size tier where 1/32nd of the escort points can buy one of that tier, and buys six of those.
-- Finds the highest size tier where 1/64th of the escort points can buy one of that tier, and buys twelve of those.
-- For those of you checking my math, 3/8 + 4/16 + 6/32 + 12/64 = .375 + .25 + .1875 + .1875 = 1. But the picked size tiers are almost never exactly the desired fraction of the escort budget, but they are always not greater than it, so there are leftovers.

Anyway, only MkI and MkII electric bombers can be picked for pickets, mkIII+ are low-end escorts. Depending on how the math works out, it's possible to cycle through the escort routine enough that it winds up having the most total ships. Which is just fine really.

Finally, for any objection or bug report pertaining to an event-attack's composition to have a chance of being acted upon, it will need to be accompanied by a copy of the EventAttackCompositionLog.txt file :) That can be obtained by turning on the Advanced Logging toggle (Advanced tab, Settings window), running the game until the attack ships are actually spawned into the game world, and then getting the file out of the game's RuntimeData subdirectory.

TechSY730

Mar 25, 2011 11:00 am

reporter   ~0011450

Gee, what a nice simple ship selection logic. With that level of simplicity, it should be easy to spot bugs or oversights if odd or unbalanced behavior comes up. :P

Sunshine

Mar 25, 2011 1:12 pm

reporter   ~0011452

Is a mk5 electric bomber really only 4 times as powerful as a mk5 bomber? That seems a little low.

keith.lamothe

Mar 25, 2011 1:18 pm

administrator   ~0011453

The numbers certainly aren't exactly right, and they have and will continue to see adjustment (I could bump zelecs up a notch or two, for instance). But in general it works out, some of the picks are more power/point efficient, some are less, and it kind of randomizes the actual power since the types are picked randomly.

For instance, you'd see a fair bit of stuff in the "frigate" tier in early event attacks because of the relatively low point values available for escorts. But as the points get higher it won't many or any frigates because of being able to afford bigger escorts (upper-mark guardians and the like, and eventually lower-mark spirecraft and whatnot).

It tends to just work out.

Sunshine

Mar 25, 2011 3:49 pm

reporter   ~0011460

Alright, cool.

Garthor

Mar 25, 2011 9:57 pm

reporter  

EventAttackCompositionInfoLog.txt (15,121 bytes)   
3/25/2011 6:15:27 PM (5.007)
-----------------------------------
Populating EventAttackArmada, 15000 total points; Game Time: 5:02:06

3/25/2011 6:15:27 PM (5.007)
-----------------------------------
BattleGroup of 7500 Points
FGType	SubTier	Tier	CostEach	Count	TotalCost
Fighter	Heavy	Drone	6	16	96
Parasite	Light	Cutter	8	4	32
MissileShip	Light	Cutter	8	6	48
FighterII	Light	Cutter	8	6	48
MissileShipII	Medium	Cutter	12	8	96
ParasiteII	Medium	Cutter	12	4	48
Bomber	Medium	Cutter	12	2	24
FighterIII	Medium	Cutter	12	2	24
ParasiteIII	Heavy	Cutter	16	10	160
FighterIV	Heavy	Cutter	16	2	32
BomberII	Heavy	Cutter	16	4	64
CoreFighter	Light	Corvette	32	4	128
CruiserIV	Light	Corvette	32	2	64
BomberIII	Light	Corvette	32	6	192
ParasiteIV	Light	Corvette	32	4	128
CoreLeech	Medium	Corvette	48	8	384
BomberIV	Medium	Corvette	48	2	96
CoreBattleCruiser	Medium	Corvette	48	6	288
ZenithElectricBomberII	Heavy	Corvette	64	12	768
CoreBomber	Heavy	Corvette	64	4	256
ZenithElectricBomberIII	Light	Frigate	64	9	576
AIGuardianArtillery	Medium	Frigate	96	1	96
AIGuardianLightning	Medium	Frigate	96	1	96
ZenithElectricBomberIV	Medium	Frigate	96	1	96
AIGuardianArtilleryII	Heavy	Frigate	128	1	128
AIGuardianTractorII	Heavy	Frigate	128	1	128
AIGuardianRaiderII	Heavy	Frigate	128	1	128
CoreZenithElectricBomber	Heavy	Frigate	128	1	128
AIGuardianSniperIII	Light	Destroyer	256	1	256
AIGuardianRaiderIII	Light	Destroyer	256	1	256
AIGuardianFlakIII	Light	Destroyer	256	1	256
SpirecraftSiegeTowerII	Heavy	Cruiser	2048	1	2048
Battlegroup actual budget spent: 7168 on 132 ships.


3/25/2011 6:15:27 PM (5.007)
-----------------------------------
BattleGroup of 7500 Points
FGType	SubTier	Tier	CostEach	Count	TotalCost
Fighter	Heavy	Drone	6	16	96
MissileShip	Light	Cutter	8	6	48
Parasite	Light	Cutter	8	4	32
FighterII	Light	Cutter	8	6	48
MissileShipII	Medium	Cutter	12	8	96
Bomber	Medium	Cutter	12	8	96
FighterIV	Heavy	Cutter	16	4	64
Cruiser	Heavy	Cutter	16	8	128
ParasiteIII	Heavy	Cutter	16	2	32
BomberII	Heavy	Cutter	16	2	32
BomberIII	Light	Corvette	32	4	128
CruiserIV	Light	Corvette	32	6	192
CoreFighter	Light	Corvette	32	4	128
ParasiteIV	Light	Corvette	32	2	64
CoreBattleCruiser	Medium	Corvette	48	4	192
CoreLeech	Medium	Corvette	48	6	288
BomberIV	Medium	Corvette	48	4	192
ZenithElectricBomber	Medium	Corvette	48	2	96
CoreBomber	Heavy	Corvette	64	8	512
ZenithElectricBomberII	Heavy	Corvette	64	8	512
ZenithElectricBomberIII	Light	Frigate	64	9	576
AIGuardianLaser	Medium	Frigate	96	1	96
AIGuardianRaider	Medium	Frigate	96	1	96
AIGuardianArtillery	Medium	Frigate	96	1	96
AIGuardianLaserII	Heavy	Frigate	128	1	128
AIGuardianBeamII	Heavy	Frigate	128	1	128
AIGuardianSniperII	Heavy	Frigate	128	1	128
AIGuardianFlakII	Heavy	Frigate	128	1	128
Flagship	Light	Destroyer	256	1	256
AIGuardianRaiderIII	Light	Destroyer	256	1	256
AIGuardianSpiderIII	Light	Destroyer	256	1	256
SpirecraftImplosionII	Heavy	Cruiser	2048	1	2048
Battlegroup actual budget spent: 7168 on 132 ships.


3/25/2011 6:21:49 PM (5.007)
-----------------------------------
Populating EventAttackArmada, 15000 total points; Game Time: 5:05:06

3/25/2011 6:21:49 PM (5.007)
-----------------------------------
BattleGroup of 7500 Points
FGType	SubTier	Tier	CostEach	Count	TotalCost
Fighter	Heavy	Drone	6	16	96
MissileShip	Light	Cutter	8	6	48
FighterII	Light	Cutter	8	2	16
Parasite	Light	Cutter	8	8	64
ParasiteII	Medium	Cutter	12	4	48
FighterIII	Medium	Cutter	12	4	48
MissileShipII	Medium	Cutter	12	6	72
Bomber	Medium	Cutter	12	2	24
ParasiteIII	Heavy	Cutter	16	8	128
Cruiser	Heavy	Cutter	16	4	64
BomberII	Heavy	Cutter	16	2	32
FighterIV	Heavy	Cutter	16	2	32
BomberIII	Light	Corvette	32	6	192
CruiserIV	Light	Corvette	32	4	128
ParasiteIV	Light	Corvette	32	4	128
CoreFighter	Light	Corvette	32	2	64
CoreBattleCruiser	Medium	Corvette	48	4	192
BomberIV	Medium	Corvette	48	4	192
CoreLeech	Medium	Corvette	48	6	288
ZenithElectricBomber	Medium	Corvette	48	2	96
ZenithElectricBomberII	Heavy	Corvette	64	12	768
CoreBomber	Heavy	Corvette	64	4	256
ZenithElectricBomberIII	Light	Frigate	64	9	576
AIGuardianRaider	Medium	Frigate	96	1	96
AIGuardianSniper	Medium	Frigate	96	1	96
AIGuardianFlak	Medium	Frigate	96	1	96
AIGuardianArtilleryII	Heavy	Frigate	128	1	128
AIGuardianTractorII	Heavy	Frigate	128	2	256
CoreZenithElectricBomber	Heavy	Frigate	128	1	128
AIGuardianSpiderIII	Light	Destroyer	256	2	512
AIGuardianBeamIII	Light	Destroyer	256	1	256
SpirecraftImplosionII	Heavy	Cruiser	2048	1	2048
None	None	None	0	0	0
Battlegroup actual budget spent: 7168 on 132 ships.


3/25/2011 6:21:49 PM (5.007)
-----------------------------------
BattleGroup of 7500 Points
FGType	SubTier	Tier	CostEach	Count	TotalCost
Fighter	Heavy	Drone	6	16	96
MissileShip	Light	Cutter	8	4	32
Parasite	Light	Cutter	8	6	48
FighterII	Light	Cutter	8	6	48
ParasiteII	Medium	Cutter	12	6	72
FighterIII	Medium	Cutter	12	6	72
Bomber	Medium	Cutter	12	2	24
MissileShipII	Medium	Cutter	12	2	24
ParasiteIII	Heavy	Cutter	16	2	32
FighterIV	Heavy	Cutter	16	8	128
BomberII	Heavy	Cutter	16	4	64
Cruiser	Heavy	Cutter	16	2	32
CruiserIV	Light	Corvette	32	4	128
ParasiteIV	Light	Corvette	32	6	192
BomberIII	Light	Corvette	32	6	192
BomberIV	Medium	Corvette	48	2	96
CoreBattleCruiser	Medium	Corvette	48	2	96
CoreLeech	Medium	Corvette	48	10	480
ZenithElectricBomber	Medium	Corvette	48	2	96
CoreBomber	Heavy	Corvette	64	6	384
ZenithElectricBomberII	Heavy	Corvette	64	10	640
ZenithElectricBomberIII	Light	Frigate	64	9	576
ZenithElectricBomberIV	Medium	Frigate	96	1	96
AIGuardianBeam	Medium	Frigate	96	1	96
AIGuardianLaser	Medium	Frigate	96	1	96
AIGuardianRaiderII	Heavy	Frigate	128	2	256
AIGuardianSniperII	Heavy	Frigate	128	1	128
AIGuardianLaserII	Heavy	Frigate	128	1	128
AIGuardianBeamIII	Light	Destroyer	256	1	256
AIGuardianLightningIII	Light	Destroyer	256	1	256
AIGuardianLaserIII	Light	Destroyer	256	1	256
SpirecraftImplosionII	Heavy	Cruiser	2048	1	2048
None	None	None	0	0	0
None	None	None	0	0	0
Battlegroup actual budget spent: 7168 on 132 ships.


3/25/2011 6:22:12 PM (5.007)
-----------------------------------
Populating EventAttackArmada, 15000 total points; Game Time: 5:06:06

3/25/2011 6:22:12 PM (5.007)
-----------------------------------
BattleGroup of 7500 Points
FGType	SubTier	Tier	CostEach	Count	TotalCost
Fighter	Heavy	Drone	6	16	96
FighterII	Light	Cutter	8	4	32
Parasite	Light	Cutter	8	8	64
MissileShip	Light	Cutter	8	4	32
MissileShipII	Medium	Cutter	12	8	96
ParasiteII	Medium	Cutter	12	4	48
Bomber	Medium	Cutter	12	2	24
FighterIII	Medium	Cutter	12	2	24
BomberII	Heavy	Cutter	16	10	160
FighterIV	Heavy	Cutter	16	2	32
Cruiser	Heavy	Cutter	16	2	32
ParasiteIII	Heavy	Cutter	16	2	32
BomberIII	Light	Corvette	32	6	192
ParasiteIV	Light	Corvette	32	4	128
CoreFighter	Light	Corvette	32	6	192
CoreBattleCruiser	Medium	Corvette	48	6	288
CoreLeech	Medium	Corvette	48	4	192
ZenithElectricBomber	Medium	Corvette	48	2	96
BomberIV	Medium	Corvette	48	4	192
ZenithElectricBomberII	Heavy	Corvette	64	10	640
CoreBomber	Heavy	Corvette	64	6	384
ZenithElectricBomberIII	Light	Frigate	64	9	576
AIGuardianTractor	Medium	Frigate	96	1	96
AIGuardianRaider	Medium	Frigate	96	1	96
AIGuardianFlak	Medium	Frigate	96	1	96
AIGuardianLaserII	Heavy	Frigate	128	1	128
AIGuardianFlakII	Heavy	Frigate	128	2	256
AIGuardianSpiderII	Heavy	Frigate	128	1	128
Flagship	Light	Destroyer	256	2	512
AIGuardianSpiderIII	Light	Destroyer	256	1	256
SpirecraftSiegeTowerII	Heavy	Cruiser	2048	1	2048
None	None	None	0	0	0
None	None	None	0	0	0
Battlegroup actual budget spent: 7168 on 132 ships.


3/25/2011 6:22:12 PM (5.007)
-----------------------------------
BattleGroup of 7500 Points
FGType	SubTier	Tier	CostEach	Count	TotalCost
Fighter	Heavy	Drone	6	16	96
FighterII	Light	Cutter	8	8	64
MissileShip	Light	Cutter	8	6	48
Parasite	Light	Cutter	8	2	16
MissileShipII	Medium	Cutter	12	6	72
ParasiteII	Medium	Cutter	12	8	96
FighterIII	Medium	Cutter	12	2	24
FighterIV	Heavy	Cutter	16	6	96
ParasiteIII	Heavy	Cutter	16	2	32
BomberII	Heavy	Cutter	16	6	96
Cruiser	Heavy	Cutter	16	2	32
BomberIII	Light	Corvette	32	4	128
ParasiteIV	Light	Corvette	32	8	256
CoreFighter	Light	Corvette	32	4	128
BomberIV	Medium	Corvette	48	8	384
CoreBattleCruiser	Medium	Corvette	48	2	96
ZenithElectricBomber	Medium	Corvette	48	4	192
CoreLeech	Medium	Corvette	48	2	96
ZenithElectricBomberII	Heavy	Corvette	64	4	256
CoreBomber	Heavy	Corvette	64	12	768
ZenithElectricBomberIII	Light	Frigate	64	9	576
AIGuardianSniper	Medium	Frigate	96	1	96
AIGuardianLaser	Medium	Frigate	96	1	96
AIGuardianTractor	Medium	Frigate	96	1	96
CoreZenithElectricBomber	Heavy	Frigate	128	1	128
AIGuardianLightningII	Heavy	Frigate	128	1	128
LightStarship	Heavy	Frigate	128	1	128
AIGuardianArtilleryII	Heavy	Frigate	128	1	128
AIGuardianFlakIII	Light	Destroyer	256	1	256
AIGuardianLaserIII	Light	Destroyer	256	1	256
AIGuardianTractorIII	Light	Destroyer	256	1	256
SpirecraftImplosionII	Heavy	Cruiser	2048	1	2048
None	None	None	0	0	0
None	None	None	0	0	0
Battlegroup actual budget spent: 7168 on 132 ships.


3/25/2011 6:22:37 PM (5.007)
-----------------------------------
Populating EventAttackArmada, 15000 total points; Game Time: 5:07:06

3/25/2011 6:22:37 PM (5.007)
-----------------------------------
BattleGroup of 7500 Points
FGType	SubTier	Tier	CostEach	Count	TotalCost
Fighter	Heavy	Drone	6	16	96
Parasite	Light	Cutter	8	8	64
MissileShip	Light	Cutter	8	4	32
FighterII	Light	Cutter	8	4	32
FighterIII	Medium	Cutter	12	6	72
Bomber	Medium	Cutter	12	6	72
ParasiteII	Medium	Cutter	12	4	48
FighterIV	Heavy	Cutter	16	6	96
BomberII	Heavy	Cutter	16	6	96
Cruiser	Heavy	Cutter	16	4	64
CruiserIV	Light	Corvette	32	6	192
CoreFighter	Light	Corvette	32	8	256
ParasiteIV	Light	Corvette	32	2	64
BomberIV	Medium	Corvette	48	2	96
CoreLeech	Medium	Corvette	48	10	480
ZenithElectricBomber	Medium	Corvette	48	2	96
CoreBattleCruiser	Medium	Corvette	48	2	96
ZenithElectricBomberII	Heavy	Corvette	64	10	640
CoreBomber	Heavy	Corvette	64	6	384
ZenithElectricBomberIII	Light	Frigate	64	9	576
AIGuardianArtillery	Medium	Frigate	96	1	96
AIGuardianSpider	Medium	Frigate	96	1	96
AIGuardianTractor	Medium	Frigate	96	1	96
AIGuardianTractorII	Heavy	Frigate	128	2	256
AIGuardianArtilleryII	Heavy	Frigate	128	1	128
AIGuardianSniperII	Heavy	Frigate	128	1	128
AIGuardianLightningIII	Light	Destroyer	256	2	512
Flagship	Light	Destroyer	256	1	256
SpirecraftImplosionII	Heavy	Cruiser	2048	1	2048
None	None	None	0	0	0
None	None	None	0	0	0
None	None	None	0	0	0
None	None	None	0	0	0
Battlegroup actual budget spent: 7168 on 132 ships.


3/25/2011 6:22:37 PM (5.007)
-----------------------------------
BattleGroup of 7500 Points
FGType	SubTier	Tier	CostEach	Count	TotalCost
Fighter	Heavy	Drone	6	16	96
MissileShip	Light	Cutter	8	10	80
FighterII	Light	Cutter	8	6	48
MissileShipII	Medium	Cutter	12	4	48
ParasiteII	Medium	Cutter	12	4	48
Bomber	Medium	Cutter	12	8	96
ParasiteIII	Heavy	Cutter	16	6	96
Cruiser	Heavy	Cutter	16	6	96
BomberII	Heavy	Cutter	16	4	64
CoreFighter	Light	Corvette	32	12	384
ParasiteIV	Light	Corvette	32	4	128
CoreBattleCruiser	Medium	Corvette	48	10	480
BomberIV	Medium	Corvette	48	4	192
CoreLeech	Medium	Corvette	48	2	96
ZenithElectricBomberII	Heavy	Corvette	64	12	768
CoreBomber	Heavy	Corvette	64	4	256
ZenithElectricBomberIII	Light	Frigate	64	9	576
ZenithElectricBomberIV	Medium	Frigate	96	1	96
AIGuardianSniper	Medium	Frigate	96	1	96
AIGuardianRaider	Medium	Frigate	96	1	96
CoreZenithElectricBomber	Heavy	Frigate	128	1	128
AIGuardianRaiderII	Heavy	Frigate	128	1	128
AIGuardianSpiderII	Heavy	Frigate	128	1	128
AIGuardianArtilleryII	Heavy	Frigate	128	1	128
Flagship	Light	Destroyer	256	1	256
AIGuardianFlakIII	Light	Destroyer	256	1	256
AIGuardianSniperIII	Light	Destroyer	256	1	256
SpirecraftSiegeTowerII	Heavy	Cruiser	2048	1	2048
None	None	None	0	0	0
None	None	None	0	0	0
None	None	None	0	0	0
None	None	None	0	0	0
None	None	None	0	0	0
None	None	None	0	0	0
Battlegroup actual budget spent: 7168 on 132 ships.


3/25/2011 6:22:55 PM (5.007)
-----------------------------------
Populating EventAttackArmada, 15000 total points; Game Time: 5:08:06

3/25/2011 6:22:55 PM (5.007)
-----------------------------------
BattleGroup of 7500 Points
FGType	SubTier	Tier	CostEach	Count	TotalCost
Fighter	Heavy	Drone	6	16	96
Parasite	Light	Cutter	8	8	64
MissileShip	Light	Cutter	8	2	16
FighterII	Light	Cutter	8	6	48
ParasiteII	Medium	Cutter	12	2	24
FighterIII	Medium	Cutter	12	8	96
MissileShipII	Medium	Cutter	12	4	48
Bomber	Medium	Cutter	12	2	24
ParasiteIII	Heavy	Cutter	16	4	64
BomberII	Heavy	Cutter	16	4	64
FighterIV	Heavy	Cutter	16	4	64
Cruiser	Heavy	Cutter	16	4	64
BomberIII	Light	Corvette	32	6	192
CruiserIV	Light	Corvette	32	2	64
ParasiteIV	Light	Corvette	32	6	192
CoreFighter	Light	Corvette	32	2	64
CoreBattleCruiser	Medium	Corvette	48	8	384
BomberIV	Medium	Corvette	48	6	288
CoreLeech	Medium	Corvette	48	2	96
CoreBomber	Heavy	Corvette	64	10	640
ZenithElectricBomberII	Heavy	Corvette	64	6	384
ZenithElectricBomberIII	Light	Frigate	64	9	576
AIGuardianLightning	Medium	Frigate	96	1	96
AIGuardianLaser	Medium	Frigate	96	1	96
AIGuardianSniper	Medium	Frigate	96	1	96
AIGuardianLaserII	Heavy	Frigate	128	1	128
CoreZenithElectricBomber	Heavy	Frigate	128	2	256
AIGuardianBeamII	Heavy	Frigate	128	1	128
AIGuardianLightningIII	Light	Destroyer	256	2	512
AIGuardianLaserIII	Light	Destroyer	256	1	256
SpirecraftSiegeTowerII	Heavy	Cruiser	2048	1	2048
None	None	None	0	0	0
None	None	None	0	0	0
Battlegroup actual budget spent: 7168 on 132 ships.


3/25/2011 6:22:55 PM (5.007)
-----------------------------------
BattleGroup of 7500 Points
FGType	SubTier	Tier	CostEach	Count	TotalCost
Fighter	Heavy	Drone	6	16	96
MissileShip	Light	Cutter	8	8	64
FighterII	Light	Cutter	8	8	64
ParasiteII	Medium	Cutter	12	2	24
Bomber	Medium	Cutter	12	8	96
MissileShipII	Medium	Cutter	12	4	48
FighterIII	Medium	Cutter	12	2	24
ParasiteIII	Heavy	Cutter	16	6	96
Cruiser	Heavy	Cutter	16	2	32
FighterIV	Heavy	Cutter	16	6	96
BomberII	Heavy	Cutter	16	2	32
BomberIII	Light	Corvette	32	8	256
CruiserIV	Light	Corvette	32	2	64
ParasiteIV	Light	Corvette	32	6	192
CoreLeech	Medium	Corvette	48	4	192
ZenithElectricBomber	Medium	Corvette	48	4	192
BomberIV	Medium	Corvette	48	6	288
CoreBattleCruiser	Medium	Corvette	48	2	96
CoreBomber	Heavy	Corvette	64	10	640
ZenithElectricBomberII	Heavy	Corvette	64	6	384
ZenithElectricBomberIII	Light	Frigate	64	9	576
AIGuardianFlak	Medium	Frigate	96	1	96
AIGuardianLightning	Medium	Frigate	96	1	96
AIGuardianSpider	Medium	Frigate	96	1	96
AIGuardianSniperII	Heavy	Frigate	128	1	128
LightStarship	Heavy	Frigate	128	1	128
AIGuardianLaserII	Heavy	Frigate	128	1	128
CoreZenithElectricBomber	Heavy	Frigate	128	1	128
AIGuardianTractorIII	Light	Destroyer	256	2	512
AIGuardianLightningIII	Light	Destroyer	256	1	256
SpirecraftSiegeTowerII	Heavy	Cruiser	2048	1	2048
None	None	None	0	0	0
None	None	None	0	0	0
None	None	None	0	0	0
Battlegroup actual budget spent: 7168 on 132 ships.


Garthor

Mar 25, 2011 10:01 pm

reporter   ~0011471

Well, Mantis just ate my post and I have to go, so I'll be short (which I'm sure you prefer anyway):

Core Bombers have the same points as both Mark II and III bombers, (2 is in the Picket class, 3 is in the Escort class), at 64 points. Mark II Electric Bombers have three times the health and damage (after multipliers) of Core Bombers, so this feels rather lopsided. Additionally, having marks in both the picket and escort class sounds to me like it ends up inflating the numbers of them (getting to pick twice), but that might not an issue if they weren't so relatively cheap. The two different mark levels costing the same may also be an issue, but that might be intentional (as it's crossing from Picket to Escort, which might intentionally reduce the power/cost ratio?).

Regardless, the FEEL of it is that the waves are absolutely terrifying due to the massive damage and the huge health pools to chew through.

I've uploaded the log.

keith.lamothe

Mar 25, 2011 10:48 pm

administrator   ~0011474

"Mantis just ate my post"

Ouch, yea, that used to happen to me a lot before. Now I type up the post in a separate text editor because mantis is so preternaturally good at permanently destroying my efforts to post something ;)

"Core Bombers have the same points as both Mark II and III bombers, (2 is in the Picket class, 3 is in the Escort class), at 64 points."

Yea, the Corvette and lower classes actually multiply their costs on cap scales lower than high (2x for normal, 4x for low) to account for most corvette/cutter/drone stuff being scaled. Which is one reason to bump all the non-scaled fleet ships (like the zelec... actually the zelec WAS being scaled, I'm fixing that to not do that, since it's a 0.1 multiplier type) up to at least light-frigate. Another reason, as you've pointed out, is that a core bomber is in no way as fearsome as a mkII or mkIII zelec. Nothing against the core bomber, it's just a different class of ship.

So I've bumped the zelecs up two grades, so the mkI starts at light-frigate, which is 1 mark above the mkV bomber (and costs 64 points compared to the mkV bomber's 32, on high caps). My extremely rough guess is that a mkV bomber is 7 times more dangerous than a mkI bomber (having 5x the raw stats, in general), and that the zelec mkI ought to be 15-20 times as dangerous as a mkI bomber. So costing 2x as much as a mkV bomber sounds roughly right. The balance isn't supposed to be very precise, but it was a bit much before, thank you for bringing that up.

"Regardless, the FEEL of it is that the waves are absolutely terrifying due to the massive damage and the huge health pools to chew through."

Well, "absolutely terrifying" is definitely one of the goals of the event-attack mechanic ;) But it can always stand a little scrutiny to improve internal consistency.

(this post survived the maw of mantis, unlike it's immediate predecessor and copy, thanks to an external text editor)

Garthor

Mar 26, 2011 12:57 am

reporter   ~0011479

Well, "absolutely terrifying" relative to previous experiences with recovering the second shard, which a mobile fleet was usually capable of handling, WITHOUT the backup of two golems, a black hole generator, and a massive chokepoint.

Which reminds me that the AI was being a bit stupid with their fleets regarding the black hole generator, in that they would first fly to the exit, regroup, and THEN realize they can't go through. Let me look into that a bit...

Red Spot

Mar 26, 2011 9:14 am

reporter   ~0011484

Does this Z-elec nerf also mean that for instance say a mad-bomber will have less of them, and trow less of them at you in regular waves? Just wondering :)

keith.lamothe

Mar 26, 2011 9:50 am

administrator   ~0011486

This is only relevant to event-attacks, sorry ;) If you have a concern about wave composition, Advanced Logging is happy to churn out a AIThreadWaveComputationLog.txt and a MainThreadWaveComputationLog.txt in your RuntimeData directory (when the wave is announced, not when spawned), and you can post those in a separate mantis issue :)

I've been several-times over the logic for ensuring that ship cap multipliers are properly considered in wave sizes, though, and I think it's working properly. The human gets 1/10th as many zelecs as bombers, and the AI waves get 1/10 as many zelecs as they would bombers. On high caps; zelecs will no longer scale so the ratio would be 1:5 and 1:2.5 on normal and low, respectively.

Red Spot

Mar 26, 2011 10:18 am

reporter   ~0011487

Not saying it is bugged, just wondering if I can expect different behaviour. Mad-bombers tend to like Z-electics :)

keith.lamothe

Mar 26, 2011 10:54 am

administrator   ~0011488

Yea, the mad bomber's madness continues unchecked ;)

Issue History

Date Modified Username Field Change
Mar 25, 2011 2:54 am Garthor New Issue
Mar 25, 2011 2:54 am Garthor File Added: 05-09.sav
Mar 25, 2011 8:05 am TechSY730 Note Added: 0011448
Mar 25, 2011 10:52 am keith.lamothe Note Added: 0011449
Mar 25, 2011 10:52 am keith.lamothe Assigned To => keith.lamothe
Mar 25, 2011 10:52 am keith.lamothe Status new => feedback
Mar 25, 2011 11:00 am TechSY730 Note Added: 0011450
Mar 25, 2011 1:12 pm Sunshine Note Added: 0011452
Mar 25, 2011 1:18 pm keith.lamothe Note Added: 0011453
Mar 25, 2011 3:49 pm Sunshine Note Added: 0011460
Mar 25, 2011 9:57 pm Garthor File Added: EventAttackCompositionInfoLog.txt
Mar 25, 2011 10:01 pm Garthor Note Added: 0011471
Mar 25, 2011 10:01 pm Garthor Status feedback => assigned
Mar 25, 2011 10:48 pm keith.lamothe Note Added: 0011474
Mar 25, 2011 10:48 pm keith.lamothe Status assigned => resolved
Mar 25, 2011 10:48 pm keith.lamothe Resolution open => fixed
Mar 26, 2011 12:57 am Garthor Note Added: 0011479
Mar 26, 2011 9:14 am Red Spot Note Added: 0011484
Mar 26, 2011 9:50 am keith.lamothe Note Added: 0011486
Mar 26, 2011 10:18 am Red Spot Note Added: 0011487
Mar 26, 2011 10:54 am keith.lamothe Note Added: 0011488