0008717: Balancing JtP missions - DEV Arcen

ID	Project	Category		Date Submitted	Last Update

0008717	Valley 1	Suggestion - Balancing Issues		Jul 1, 2012 12:00 am	Aug 20, 2012 6:19 am

Reporter	Pyrrhic	Assigned To
Status	considering	Resolution	open
Product Version	1.103 (Official Hotfix)

Summary	0008717: Balancing JtP missions
Description	I always use Stealth enchants in JtP missions. Without one, it seems like there's lots of enemies that are otherwise too powerful: Urban Sniper Balloons, definitely (as mentioned by Misery); bats, especially regular/sonic ones at night; any fast enemy that runs across the map (rhinos, bulls, and eagles); Robot Ankle-Biters; and Fire Espers (their projectiles can be kind of fast, not to mention small and therefore harder to see). There's probably others. Therefore, I suggest that players be given an intrinsic stealth bonus for these missions (like they get with 'Stealth Assassination' missions). I suggest that it be a pretty minor bonus (whatever the smallest bonus is for the awareness lines to kick in), so that players get the maximum amount of warning for when enemies are approaching - as well as giving enemies a very good chance of noticing the player. In the spirit of 'perfection', I further suggest that all enchants be disabled during JtP missions. (I originally thought that simply disabling any further Stealth enchants would be a good idea, figuring that if you had a very high stealth bonus on these missions, they'd be far too easy...but the idea of disabling all enchants seems, at least to me, kind of fun.) However, it would be really difficult to do these missions in the dark, without a light bonus...so I'm thinking that players could also be given an intrinsic light emission for these missions. Something about perfection, and radiating an inner light, seems like it makes a weird kind of sense). Lastly, I suggest that the 'Douse Monster Nest' spell be disabled for these missions. Dousing invincible monster nests, you've pretty much taken them out of commission for the rest of the mission (I don't think these missions take me longer than 5 minutes), which has the same effect as destroying a non-invincible monster nest. P.S: Is it proper form to lump several related suggestions together? Or should I have posted a separate suggestion for each one? Edits, based on discussion below: * I now think it'd be best if there were a permanent Flash of Light effect for these missions. It's in the same spirit as players being given a minor innate Stealth enchantment: they are given the most information possible (in this case, being able to see everything), so that they can best plan out how they'll approach and deal with the enemy ahead without taking damage. * Maybe enemies should be given regular health for these missions. If players already know what enemies are ahead of them (thanks to the lighting and the stealth enchant), it's a lot easier to simply plan ahead and try to figure out how to deal with the upcoming enemy. In other words, our advantage against the enemy is no longer that we can kill them quickly, but our knowledge: we know where they are, what they are (usually), and can therefore plan ahead and figure out how to deal with them in the best possible way. * If enemies have normal health, and players have all their enchants disabled, some enemies which are currently difficult (Sniper Balloons, unless you use a stealth enchant) become easier, while other enemies become harder. Crashed Land Speeders come to mind: If your enchants are disabled, including your mana/attack bonus enchants, then a CLS' projectiles probably can't be destroyed in one hit. Given how fast they are produced, and that they're homing, these proposed changes might make CLSes too powerful for these kinds of missions. ^-- Perhaps projectiles should be slowed down in JtP missions? (I'm thinking they could move at half their regular speed.) This would make Sniper Balloons easier to deal with in the /current/ version of JtP missions, and it'd make CLSes easier in my proposed version.
Tags	No tags attached.

Internal Weight	Feature Suggestion

Misery Jul 1, 2012 2:10 am reporter ~0026188	The stealth thing, that's the only part I'd be against. I find that using any cloak enchant (and it doesnt have to be a strong one) makes you nigh-invincible during these missions. Cloaks dont have that effect in normal areas, because once you hit a monster with something they WILL start firing back at you; but in a JtP, a single hit kills them, so they dont get that chance. Now that being said, I agree with the rest of it. Enchants should probably be disabled here. The game already disables a bunch of support spells.... it's just you, your attack spells, and the enemy. The afore-mentioned Cloak type enchant is way too powerful here, as is enchants that increase projectile speed (because they can give you extreme range). And yes, Douse is one of the support spells that should indeed be nullified during this mission type. Kinda breaks the point of the mission if you can just turn the spawners off at will, heh. Some enemies though, if not removed, need to perhaps be altered a bit, to be fair in this mission type. Sniper Balloons, for instance, instead of removing them, they could perhaps have their range shortened a bit (just for this mission type); they'd still fire at you from further away than other monsters, but you'd have time to spot them and try to do something about them BEFORE they fire. Enemies with seeker shots of any sort either should have the seekers slowed down during these, or just reduced in number. Though I cant think of any of that type of enemy that generally appears in these. I'm sure there is some, though. As for the lighting, it could just be well-lit by default; like having the Flash of Light effect permanently on during the duration of the mission. After all, it's not the darkness you're fighting, it's all of the floating fireballs and robots and whatever.

Pyrrhic Jul 2, 2012 12:40 am reporter ~0026202 Last edited: Jul 2, 2012 12:54 am	What if enemies were no longer weakened in JtP missions? You would still have your enchants disabled (I'm thinking that your health/mana/attack enchants would be temporarily disabled too), and be given that minor Stealth enchant. This way, these missions would be less about "kill anything that moves as quickly as you can," and more about "hmm, I see that there's an enemy a little ways away. Before I get any closer, I'm going to figure out the best way to deal with this enemy, without taking any damage"; the latter mindset feels a lot more suited to a mission about perfection. As I think about it, I think you might have a point with enemy-tweaking in JtP missions. At the very least, I think it's something to keep in mind. It's not unprecedented - I'm pretty sure that bats were removed from anachronism missions. It's kind of funny. In my proposed JtP tweaks (or if you use a stealth enchant in the current kind of JtP missions), Sniper Balloons aren't especially difficult, since you can sort of see them in advance; as long as you know how they operate, it's not impossible to dodge their fire. /But on the other hand/, my tweaks would make Crashed Speeders (to use a specific example) a really difficult enemy on these missions, when currently they are not: if you have enchants disabled, an enemy that spams high-health homing projecticles that you can't take out in one hit...may be a bit too much to handle. Or, maybe there's some high-powered spells that could eliminate those projectiles, even with all enchants disabled. Or, as you suggest, maybe a tweak is in order here - and those projectiles should have their health lowered for JtP missions, or Crashed Speeders not allowed. That is, if my proposed JtP system is implemented. Hmm. I like your idea of slowing down projectiles from all enemies in JtP missions. It'd make sniper balloons easier to deal with, in JtP's current form (provided you were alert to the sound of them firing); and it'd also make crashed land speeders easier to deal with in my proposed form. Maybe all enemy projectiles would move at, say...half their usual speed? re Lighting: permanent Flash of Light might work. It depends on whether the darkness really should be something else we're combatting (my stealth says there's an enemy there, but I can't see them...what should I do?), or if we should be given plenty of visual information, so that we may better plan and accomplish our "Perfect" plans. I think I prefer the latter...so I guess in my opinion, a permanent Flash of Light effect would be nice for these missions.

Kio Jul 2, 2012 3:17 am reporter ~0026203	I'd never find reason to do them then. First you're making them harder to kill, then you take away your stat enchants... there goes mp AND attack. goodbye killing anything. Throw on a loss of double or triple jump, or jump heights, increased elemental damage or speed or cools, etc etc... you're not doing a journey to perfection, you're doing a stripped challenge. make it a new mission altogether. My only complaint with journey to perfection missions is the ice pirate patrols. Constantly seeking shelter from their attacks and waiting for a chance to run to the next hideout, only to get caught on a stretch of land with a lot of ice attacks coming and no way to dodge or defend, that's the most annoying thing i found in this ever. one missed dwarf skelebot and about 15 hits from the ice patrol attacks led to an annoying time trying to clear one mission.

BenMiff Jul 2, 2012 6:32 am reporter ~0026206	The issue with Journey To Perfection is that offscreen enemies can attack you without warning, autofailing the mission. (This is espescially bad at lower screen resolutions, but can occur on some of the larger ones too.) Combining this with near instant hit attacks like the urban sniper balloon and the mission becomes near impossible. I like the 1 hit = kill aspect, but a stealth enchant is necessary to see the enemies; being able to snipe them without them getting a chance to respond is an unfortunate side effect. Rather than slowing down projectiles, maybe give a "target line" for attacks a second or so before the attack is made? I'm thinking it would likely start one colour, and deepen to another (blue to red?) as it counts down (possibly with a "flash" on firing before disappearing.) That way, you can see attacks coming, even if they come from offscreen, and get some warning to let you dodge.

tigersfan Jul 2, 2012 9:25 am reporter ~0026213	FYI, in general putting separate suggestions in separate tickets is ideal, in case we only want to do a few at a time, they are easier to keep track of. Since these are all related specifically to JtP, they are ok to leave together.

Pyrrhic Jul 3, 2012 6:37 am reporter ~0026261 Last edited: Jul 3, 2012 6:38 am	@Kio: I don't think enemies would be made impossible to kill; they would just take a bit of planning (like choosing the best element and spell to attack them with), probably dodging their return-fire a few times, and (likely) picking off enemies one by one. To be clear, I'm not suggesting enemies be made stronger - just to return them to their normal stats (although if all of your enchants are disabled, then enemies will probably feel more challenging than normal.) re disabling health/mana/attack stat enchants: I'm not that worried about disabling attack. So you'll probably have to hit enemies a few more times, can't one shot as many, and may have to dodge some fire. Those just...mean that you'll have to dodge more incoming fire, making the mission more like a platformer. Some drawbacks that I can think of about disabling h/m/a enchants: * You have less spells at your disposal (you won't be able to cast the higher-MP spells if, with your mana enchant disabled, you just don't have the MP to cast them). That said, if you want high MP and would like to one-shot JtP enemies, you could always (provided you've unlocked them) use an Age of Magic character. Different ages are better at certain missions - and this way, AoM characters would be better at JtP missions. * In general, disabling h/m/a enchants might encourage players to feel like they're being limited, and have less agency: choosing your stat enchants is like choosing what kind of game you want to bring to the mission. Taking that away can feel like you're being left with very few options. On the other hand, completing one of these missions with no enchants can feel empowering. You don't have to count on the strong enchants you've accumulated over time: using your own wits (and some strong spells), you were able to complete the mission...perfectly. That seems kind of nice. I've yet to experience the Ice Pirate patrols, just having beaten my first overlord, so I can't really weigh in on that, specifically.

Date Modified	Username	Field	Change
Jul 1, 2012 12:00 am	Pyrrhic	New Issue
Jul 1, 2012 12:01 am	Pyrrhic	Relationship added	related to 0008617
Jul 1, 2012 2:10 am	Misery	Note Added: 0026188
Jul 2, 2012 12:40 am	Pyrrhic	Note Added: 0026202
Jul 2, 2012 12:50 am	Pyrrhic	Description Updated
Jul 2, 2012 12:51 am	Pyrrhic	Description Updated
Jul 2, 2012 12:54 am	Pyrrhic	Note Edited: 0026202
Jul 2, 2012 3:17 am	Kio	Note Added: 0026203
Jul 2, 2012 6:32 am	BenMiff	Note Added: 0026206
Jul 2, 2012 9:25 am	tigersfan	Internal Weight	=> Feature Suggestion
Jul 2, 2012 9:25 am	tigersfan	Note Added: 0026213
Jul 2, 2012 9:25 am	tigersfan	Status	new => considering
Jul 3, 2012 6:37 am	Pyrrhic	Note Added: 0026261
Jul 3, 2012 6:38 am	Pyrrhic	Note Edited: 0026261
Jul 3, 2012 6:38 am	Pyrrhic	Note Edited: 0026261
Jul 5, 2012 6:20 pm	Pyrrhic	Relationship added	related to 0008651
Aug 20, 2012 6:19 am	Pyrrhic	Relationship added	related to 0009283