View Issue Details
| ID | Project | Category | Date Submitted | Last Update | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 0022094 | AI War 2 | Balance Issue | Nov 5, 2019 3:20 pm | Jan 19, 2020 12:58 pm | |
| Reporter | Winston Smith | Assigned To | RocketAssistedPuffin | ||
| Status | resolved | Resolution | fixed | ||
| Product Version | 1.003 Sortable Objectives | ||||
| Fixed in Version | 1.308 Mega Performance | ||||
| Summary | 0022094: Vanguard Buff Idea | ||||
| Description | So currently, Vanguards are very weak at any mark level, especially in AI hands. There are two options for a fleet that has vanguards - either it contains other ships or it doesn't. For fleets that contain other ships, the vanguards may as well not exist. They don't fulfill their main role as a meatshield, since opponents will target any ship other than a vanguard before chewing through vanguards. Vanguards don't do enough damage to be a threat, and their only utility is their toughness, so they don't bring much to a mixed fleet. In a fleet of only or almost only Vanguards, which should only happen in AI-controlled fleets, they're still not much of a threat. Outside of massive fleets or if the player is metal-starved, they'll never do enough damage to outpace replacement ships or defenses, meaning that they're just not threatening enough to bother defending against, until they do enough damage to outpace your replacements, which is thousands of strength of vanguards. So, I'm suggesting a buff to them. They're already tough enough, so I think the buff should go towards damage or utility. I'll give a couple ideas. 1. Currently, nothing in the game deals extra damage to 60mm armor. I say that vanguards should should have a bonus against this awkward middle class of armor. Vanguards don't do much damage in the first place, so maybe 3x or 4x? This kills two birds with one stone - removing a gap where nothing counters 60mm, and letting vanguards be threatening. The only problem is that it's a bit awkward in lore - why would a weapon be effective only against 60mm of armor? 2. Give vanguards some sort of crowd control. For example, give each vanguard 1 or 2 tractor beams. This lets them fulfill their designated role, but only if you micro. You could slam a group of vanguards into some tractor-able enemies, and then the vanguards take those ships away so that only the vanguards can get hit by the ships. 3. Give them AoE damage. There aren't many (any?) extremely light ships that are effective against vanguards, so double down on this. Let them hit 5 targets per shot, and lower the damage to each target slightly. This makes vanguards an extreme counter to light ships, but I'm not sure this is needed given that so many anti-light options already exist. | ||||
| Tags | No tags attached. | ||||
| parent of | 0022642 | closed | RocketAssistedPuffin | Vanguard Shield Corvettes, a replacement for Vanguard fleetships |
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Raiders give other ships in its fleet a "speed boost" that matches raiders base speed. The mechanic for ships giving other ships something is otherwise non-existent Perhaps vanguards could give other ships in its fleet the same defensive bonus -- making other ships temporarily resistant to damage. Possibly should make it have a longer damage resistance -- matching it with the ambush turrets damage bonus seems intuitive Vanguards in the AI's hands don't need to do damage to be effective. The amount of damage these things can shrug off offsets their weak dps and the AI gets LOTS more of these in their waves. |
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Vanguard in the AI's hands DO need damage to be effective. Let's say you have a choice between fighting 1k strength of vanguards and 1k strength of pike corvettes. You should always pick the vanguards - the fight will take far longer, meaning you'll get far more time to replenish your losses during the fight, meaning it's far less of a threat. I realize that some ships will do more damage than others, but vanguards need to outnumber you (power-wise) at least 4 to 1 before they're dangerous, if you're fighting near factories. |
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Some ideas here: 1): New weapon, anti structure rocket. (Predecessors in Classic had Turret bonus). 2): They get the damage bonus from Pulsar Tanks, it and their defensive one last longer. This means the Hydra Heads would have enormous chunks of burst damage upon spawning. (Pulsar Tanks are no longer as unique). 3): They get a light splash weapon and a weapon jam effect like Tesla Corvettes. (Has overlap). 4): Up their priority so they are like Decoy Drones, give them a damage reduction bonus against long range. (Concerned about the priority - people might not enjoy their entire force attacking just these on their own). 5): Just have them extend that bonus to their Fleet. This doesn't work for the AI, but sometimes that's just...okay? 6): Mass reaction cannons - they just flat out do more damage to higher mass stuff. (If they also had bits of 2, they'd be pretty good I think at clearing Guard Posts that are nearby). 7): They just explode on death. (Requires code, but think there's bits of it lying around...) 8): That "Precision" (I think?) mechanic - more damage / faster fire rate the more they hit a single target. Not feeling any in particular. 4 I'm against the most, 2 I'm very unsure of, 1 I can't remove a system cleanly so wary of it unless absolutely sure. |
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I don't like 2 or 4 - 2 makes Hydra vanguards much more powerful than regular vanguards, and 4 pushes decoy drones out of usefulness. Of the others, I like 1, 6, 7, and 8 the best. Nothing else explicitly deals more damage to structures, 6 is a decent buff but not very interesting (not that it needs to be interesting), and 7 and 8 are unique, similar to 1. For 8, I worry that it'd be too binary - excellent against tough targets, like dire guardians, but awful against swarms (which isn't bad in and of itself). 7 sort of runs counter to what the buff should be - you're now incentivized even less to kill vanguards, though they are more dangerous. I like 1 the best overall - it's a unique niche, makes them situationally threatening, and buffs both human and AI vanguards. |
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I like the idea of not upping their damage, but making them good support ships. Here's my idea: Add a new tag to the game called "Flak Shield." If an AOE attack like grenades, flak, tesla, etc, gets a list of targets, the Vanguards are guaranteed to be chosen first. This can be done by altering the sorting you already do to find ships in the range to always list Vanguards in range at the top. If this isn't enough, make Vanguards count as 2 targets for AOE attacks. |
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Puffin, regarding your ideas, I like the following (in order of preference): 8) Precision -- This mechanic could actually substitute for the anti-weapon or complement it; this certainly would help them focus down the durable targets (structures namely). Furthermore, the Vanguard was originally one of the trio of units reserved to the AI so it seems only fitting that it has an interesting and special feature 1) anti-structure weapon -- This is compelling because ambush tech currently lacks a dedicated unit to deal with structures and I think this is important to flesh out to make ambush tech a more appealing "main" (it is more of a candy tech right now) 5) Grants fleet bonus -- currently, only the raiders (and variant) can grant other ships within its fleet a bonus. It could be worthwhile to have a ship from each tech route to something comparable (e.g, vanguard gives defensive bonus). This does create an asymmetry in usage between players and AI (not necessarily a bad thing) so perhaps this should also come with a general buff to the vanguard like the anti-structure weapon |
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So far, I lean towards 1. Will implement and test. |
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What role are they *meant* to fulfil? They're meatshields, meant to go in first and deal with the brunt of opposing fire, right? Then they need to either supply a defensive bonus to allied ships, or they need to have artificially high priority like decoy drones, or they need something like a paralysis weapon so they can go in first and stun the opposition. |
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Priority is not something I am willing to do here. I imagine that would be annoying to face, and people would just pause and manually queue up attack orders to get around it. I have an idea in mind, I need to test it. |
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Buffs in stored changes. |
| Date Modified | Username | Field | Change |
|---|---|---|---|
| Nov 5, 2019 3:20 pm | Winston Smith | New Issue | |
| Nov 5, 2019 6:52 pm | ZeusAlmighty | Note Added: 0054377 | |
| Nov 5, 2019 8:01 pm | Winston Smith | Note Added: 0054380 | |
| Nov 11, 2019 8:46 pm | RocketAssistedPuffin | Note Added: 0054524 | |
| Nov 11, 2019 9:04 pm | RocketAssistedPuffin | Note Edited: 0054524 | |
| Nov 12, 2019 2:21 pm | Winston Smith | Note Added: 0054527 | |
| Nov 12, 2019 6:36 pm | Chthonic One | Note Added: 0054531 | |
| Nov 13, 2019 1:47 am | ZeusAlmighty | Note Added: 0054536 | |
| Nov 13, 2019 8:44 am | RocketAssistedPuffin | Note Added: 0054540 | |
| Jan 14, 2020 7:08 pm | RocketAssistedPuffin | Assigned To | => RocketAssistedPuffin |
| Jan 14, 2020 7:08 pm | RocketAssistedPuffin | Status | new => assigned |
| Jan 15, 2020 2:39 pm | Fluffiest | Note Added: 0055590 | |
| Jan 15, 2020 2:46 pm | RocketAssistedPuffin | Note Added: 0055591 | |
| Jan 16, 2020 8:53 am | Fluffiest | Relationship added | parent of 0022642 |
| Jan 19, 2020 12:58 pm | RocketAssistedPuffin | Status | assigned => resolved |
| Jan 19, 2020 12:58 pm | RocketAssistedPuffin | Resolution | open => fixed |
| Jan 19, 2020 12:58 pm | RocketAssistedPuffin | Fixed in Version | => 1.308 Mega Performance |
| Jan 19, 2020 12:58 pm | RocketAssistedPuffin | Note Added: 0055664 |
