View Issue Details
| ID | Project | Category | Date Submitted | Last Update | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 0003165 | AI War 1 / Classic | Suggestion - Unit Abilities And Behaviors | Mar 30, 2011 4:48 pm | Jun 4, 2013 6:26 pm | |
| Reporter | Irxallis | Assigned To | |||
| Status | new | Resolution | open | ||
| Product Version | 5.009 | ||||
| Summary | 0003165: Neinzul Youngling ships usability | ||||
| Description | Three things which make it quite unwieldy for me to reliably use Neinzul Youngling ships are: 1) The fact I cannot order them to be built in low power mode. I *want* them in low power mode at start if those are on my planets, because they aren't usually shooting at enemies there anyway. If I am busy elsewhere and my Neinzul Youngling fleet got obliterated I am left with 40-90% HP Younglings unless I focus on their HP a lot. This wouldn't be as bad if not for the next point. 2) The fact I cannot order them to go to the Neinzul Regenaration Chamber to heal themselves. I cannot order my ships 'go and heal yourself' before any action. I am usually left with a very damaged fleet, if unattended. What is worse... 3) I cannot tell my Neinzul Younglings "all right, you are here to die. Don't return to the Regeneration Chamber". I need to destroy it to make sure they won't try to come back. --- Suggestion: Add those checkboxes in Control window: 1) Build Neinzul Younglings in Low Power Mode. Y/N 2) Neinzul Younglings return to Regeneration Chamber. Y/N (though a movement order might be a better idea) and 3) please make the Neinzul ships 'Load' at Regeneration Chamber manually. Each of those three suggestions would make my life much easier while playing with Neinzul ships. Especially with Tigers - 2 min lifespan means I need to be there NOW and babysit a lot or I have a very damaged army, sometimes to the point of uselessness. or/and: 4) Give the Regeneration Chamber an option of 'Unload all ships NOW'. Sometimes when my base is under attack I want them to screen and fire, even once, not to regenerate. ---- None of those suggestions (except of 1) are 'perfect', as in, resolve the problem they try to answer 100%, but each of those problems make it artificially hard to use Neinzul Younglings. Which, I have to admit, are my favourite types of ships at the moment. I am sure someone will find a better idea how to resolve those issues. | ||||
| Tags | No tags attached. | ||||
| Internal Weight | |||||
| related to | 0005812 | considering | Allow Neinzul regeneration chambers to rally |
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How about always allowing them to break off their current orders an head to a regeneration chamber on low health if both the ship and the chamber are on the same planet (put the chamber itself into low power mode if you want to stop even that), but make a control option to give the option of suppressing chamber searching on adjacent planets. This would let them attack "to the death", but keep themselves alive on defense. |
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Oh, and I think that the chamber aleady has an unload button that forces all units out, healed or not. Of course, unless you put the chamber into low power mode, neinzul ships that still are "in the red" will just hop right back in. |
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Maybe it's worth reconsidering the entire attrition system for them, so that instead of dying while idle, they only suffer attrition when moving or fighting. This would remove the micromanagement required for them to be useful, make intelligent placement of regen chambers rather important (Near the front where they're vulnerable, or farther back, where a wounded unit might not make it?) This would also make them viable long range offensive units, as well as effective defensive units that can do thier job without micromanagement. |
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@Prezombie Which would require modifying the in story descripton of the Neinzul species. the self attrition is not only a balancing point, but also made nessesary by the backstory of the Neinzul. I'm not saying such a new type of attrition and giving it to the Neinzul shouldn't be done, but rather there is more to consider than just usability and balance. |
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Build them with 10 engies, they pop out of the dock in full caps in a couple of second, the lowest health will be about 92% if you dont put them in low-power in between. Keep them in low-power, or in a transport. When needed: aim, power-up, release -> kill. The only time I find them bothersome is when I get a core-fabricator with the Nanoswarms, thats more micro than usefullness in my eyes, and so I never use them (though always have a cap ready in a transport for when I "need" them, which just never seems to happen). You can always unlock mk2 transport incase you dont want any kind of micro (more than loading them onto the transports that is), or only build them "during" a fight. ps: you can actually unload them manually from a chamber, as you would a transport. |
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As it is, LP mode puts them into hibernation, I'm just proposing the system automatically do the toggling when a perfect player would do it, the story can cope with stasis mode when the neinzul are away from their hives and awaiting orders. If we're going to argue story details, how can a dock make neinzul units, but a hybrid hive can't? :P |
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I agree they are awfully fiddly to deal with sometimes. If nothing else, I'd like some way to order them to stay in the fight until death, instead of trying to beeline for the wormhole because there's a regen chamber one hop over. I don't like the idea of them never trying to save themselves though, so a hard off/on switch wouldn't be very useful to me. My suggestion would be an option that would make them fight to the death on AI worlds, but still attempt to return to the regen chamber on friendly worlds. If I've brought them away from safe territory, there's a good chance that I expect them to die anyway. Or perhaps they should only try to return when on FRD mode? That would cover it for my playstyle, although I'm not sure if others use auto-FRD as much as I do. Anything to avoid having to constantly click click click to keep them dancing back and forth in range of a target though. |
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Combining the things suggested, and preferences expressed, I'd say just stop making them go to chambers on other planets and the problem is pretty much solved in a way everyone gets a tweak slightly towards their liking. If we make things too automated, or get too specific control over their behaviour, the next topic will be about Youngling ships being unbalanced/OP. However, if that is the full extend of the tweak, it needs no tweak, just power down the camber on the next planet. (Allowing some choice, compared to never allow them to hop nextdoor to regenerate.) So in the end, I'd vote to leave them exactly as they are :) |
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Manual load into a regen chamber is a MUST for me. |
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You build regen chambers? I always use them as throwaway ships. Mass-produce them, when they are needed as vanguard / damage sponge in offense or quick reaction force in defense and then let them die. I hate it when they leave their guard to regenerate, cause they are so dirt cheap. Just let them die and get another wave in. And if the production facilities are too far away from the place where they are needed, I just build two space docks and a few engineers and have a new Neinzul machine gun in position. |
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I build them, have them regenerate(when damaged), put them in low power, and have a cap/several caps at full health standing by for whatever they may be usefull. On offence I just put the chamber in low power and let them kamikaze as they are more usefull that way on offence. @ Draco, if the chambers are manually loadable I will suggest to nerf all Younglings, it makes them too powerfull (or you have to pay knowledge to unlock the chamber). |
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*Shrug* I'd pay knowledge for that. |
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I would pay knowledge for the regen chamber as well if it were allowed to be manually loaded, and if Neinzul were allowed to be constructed in low power mode. Also, as a note, the Regen Chamber already has an unload button. I didn't realize the chamber could be put in low power though. That simply makes ships returning an issue of not building it/putting it in lower power mode. No checkboxes needed for the returning variable. |
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1) You can put regen chambers in low power mode? There is no button for that - we have 'Give' and 'Unload' instead of usual 'Pause' and 'Give'. Do you use a hotkey of some kind? If so, please consider adding a button where it 'should' be if possible - I didn't even know it is an option. 2) Yes, I would pay knowledge for Regen Chambers with manual load too, though we might have something like this already - transport level 2. I will have to unlock it and check it out. 3) Assuming the Transport Mk2 is a 'mobile efficient Regen Chamber (the regen time is the issue here)' RedSpot's idea of 'do not return to a Regen Chamber on different planet (not even allied)' would suffice for me. That is - in perfect world I could unlock Transport mk2 to be able to manually regenerate Neinzuls and I would use Regen Chambers on planets where I want them to be on defense. They wouldn't break from the formation and attempt to return even on adjacent planet and I can heal the forces I have left before a major battle / get all those 70% HP Neinzuls to 98%. Ah, and as a bonus I would get an efficient transport (mk2). 4) Implies the only 'real' issue I have (aside the fact I don't know the system well enough) would be an option to build them in Low Power Mode. As it stands, I use them (except Nanoswarms) either as a screen for the more valuable part of the fleet or as blazing fast guard post raiders. In both of those cases I manually supervise the battle and I lose quite a lot of them to enemy fire, not to attrition - which forces me to jump between sectors to put those which were just rebuilt in Low Power Mode (about 30 at a time). If I don't - I have ships at 30-90% HP after an operation is completed. Sure, what I do then is destroy the fleet and rebuild it to get them in 95% HP (Low Power Mode) so I get the same result as if those were made in Low Power Mode, but I pay twice as many resources and it is irritating. This is my main issue with Neinzul Younglings, everything else can be somehow avoided. This is especially horrible for the Tigers having 2 min attrition. As I need them easily accessible (in sector X, not to waste time searching for them when the battle is raging) I cannot give them waypoints out of this world or I will forget about some and they'll out-attrition themselves. Pause is a nice feature, but I play mostly mutiplayer so I prefer not to use it too much. --- Thanks for your insight, you gave me lots of ideas how to use Neinzuls better. |
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Wait, regen chambers can't be put into low power mode? Thanks to how they can mess with the behavior of Neinzul ships (sometime for the better, sometimes for the worse), it seems like you should be able to. BTW, the hotkey for low power mode toggle is K (by default, though you can change that) |
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I like Prezombie's idea, which basically has them go into low-power mode automatically when they're not doing anything else. It would remove a lot of the micro but keep the strategic complexity; of course it would have to be combined with nerfs to lifespan. |
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@Tech: No, you can't. The OP's comments have been some of my annoyances with Younglings as well. I was debating on putting up a mantis for this but, look, it's right here! Thanks for the bump Martyn. |
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Thinking a bit more, we have planet-by-planet options for a few ships' behavior, especially engineers. How about one for "Neinzul ships automatically go to regen chambers" and a global one for "Neinzul ships on neutral/hostile worlds automatically go to regen chambers?" Honestly I find younglings good enough to use despite this inconvenience, but they do make me feel compelled to do a lot of micro I wouldn't bother with most places in the game. |
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Actually (maybe I'm going to get slaughtered for suggesting this), thinking about TechSY's thematic complaint, I could see an argument for there being absolutely nothing you can do to stop Neinzul ships from self-attrition; buff the hell out of them and remove regen chambers, let them take damage in low-power mode, transports, whatever. They'd become a very specialized thing you have to build right when you need it, but that could be cool. They'd need a rather longer lifespan, such that you can get a cap out and have the first ship still be at 70-80% health without too much difficulty, and they'd have to be powerful enough that they're worth being that much harder to keep around. But it would fit the theme better than the current setup (if regen chambers work, why don't they all extend their lifespans that way?) and make them an even more distinctive thing. And it would reduce the micro even more, because the only thing you could really do about the attrition is build them at the right time. |
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The original design that I recall, waaaaay back before they came out was to be a short lived, nearly-instant build, strike force. I was expecting something that I could build in 15 seconds or less and have 90 seconds (or somesuch) to use them. I didn't anticipate this "takes 180 seconds to build them all, by the way, half of them are already dead" thing we have now. |
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@Draco: You should see how much 'fun' they are to try to build off a stack quickly on Multi-HW scenarios. Admittedly, there's nothing quite like having 800 disposable ships on the 'cheap'. :) |
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If only we have to option of making these Neinzul ships Hive-Golem like. That is: - enable transport capability of Space-Docks and Neinzul-Enclave-Starships, for storing just Neinzul ships. - When built, swarms are kept inside where they do not attrition. - Can be released manually or automatically. |
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@zharmad: YES! Exactly! |
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My younglings won't autoload into regen chamber. Also I thought that somewhere I read that youngling caps were per enclave which strikes me as sensible but mine seem to be in total (1 cap for all enclave starships). I like the idea of attrition only taking effect while moving or fighting although maybe if regen chambers seemed to be working I might think different. |
| Date Modified | Username | Field | Change |
|---|---|---|---|
| Mar 30, 2011 4:48 pm | Irxallis | New Issue | |
| Mar 30, 2011 4:50 pm | Irxallis | Description Updated | |
| Mar 30, 2011 5:59 pm | TechSY730 | Note Added: 0011604 | |
| Mar 30, 2011 6:02 pm | TechSY730 | Note Added: 0011605 | |
| Mar 30, 2011 7:58 pm | Prezombie | Note Added: 0011608 | |
| Mar 30, 2011 8:31 pm | TechSY730 | Note Added: 0011610 | |
| Mar 30, 2011 8:32 pm | TechSY730 | Note Edited: 0011610 | |
| Mar 31, 2011 1:29 am | Red Spot | Note Added: 0011615 | |
| Mar 31, 2011 7:58 am | Prezombie | Note Added: 0011617 | |
| Mar 31, 2011 1:59 pm | BobTheJanitor | Note Added: 0011620 | |
| Mar 31, 2011 2:51 pm | Red Spot | Note Added: 0011621 | |
| Apr 1, 2011 10:34 pm | Draco18s | Note Added: 0011641 | |
| Apr 2, 2011 4:57 am | Jokus | Note Added: 0011642 | |
| Apr 2, 2011 5:00 am | Jokus | Note Edited: 0011642 | |
| Apr 2, 2011 8:26 am | Red Spot | Note Added: 0011643 | |
| Apr 2, 2011 11:53 am | Draco18s | Note Added: 0011644 | |
| Apr 3, 2011 11:40 pm | Sunshine | Note Added: 0011652 | |
| Apr 4, 2011 3:48 am | Irxallis | Note Added: 0011653 | |
| Apr 4, 2011 3:49 am | Irxallis | Note Edited: 0011653 | |
| Apr 4, 2011 7:55 am | TechSY730 | Note Added: 0011655 | |
| Feb 11, 2012 5:27 am | martyn_van_buren | Note Added: 0018892 | |
| Feb 11, 2012 2:01 pm | GUDare | Note Added: 0018906 | |
| Feb 11, 2012 2:09 pm | martyn_van_buren | Note Added: 0018907 | |
| Feb 11, 2012 2:17 pm | martyn_van_buren | Note Added: 0018908 | |
| Feb 11, 2012 2:42 pm | Draco18s | Note Added: 0018909 | |
| Feb 11, 2012 7:00 pm | GUDare | Note Added: 0018917 | |
| Feb 14, 2012 9:54 am | zharmad | Note Added: 0019093 | |
| Feb 14, 2012 10:06 am | Draco18s | Note Added: 0019094 | |
| Jun 3, 2013 3:03 pm | TechSY730 | Relationship added | related to 0005812 |
| Jun 4, 2013 6:26 pm | platypusmcd | Note Added: 0032794 |
