View Issue Details
| ID | Project | Category | Date Submitted | Last Update | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 0014415 | The Last Federation | Balance Issue | Apr 22, 2014 3:44 pm | May 21, 2014 10:22 am | |
| Reporter | eRe4s3r | Assigned To | Chris_McElligottPark | ||
| Status | resolved | Resolution | fixed | ||
| Product Version | 1.002 (Tech Acquisitions And Planetary Attacks) | ||||
| Summary | 0014415: Thoraxians and Burlusts - Warlike races are severely inhibited and die near instantly | ||||
| Description | As debated and discussed here -> http://www.arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,15350.0.html I hereby file this ;p The problem is as follows. Since 1.001 (And particularly since 1.002) the warlike races are nearly impotent, and often die early, and when not, are generally very weak even with FULL player assistance. Out of 3 observed games in fast-forward mode in 1.002, Thoraxians died *first* Out of play experience from 1.001, Thoraxians were *always* weak and when not that, then dead According to other reports, in late game Thoraxians and Burlusts fall in a "tech hole" that they can never get out. This is particularly noticeable when they do not start first. But it is even more noticable when player starts with them and they are spacefaring first. This leads to near instant war due to hostile nature of the races, and often quick death. The change in 1.003 to reduce the "growth rate penalty" on attack is good, but it's not what was hurting the race prior to 1.002. Currently we were not able to find what exactly is causing Thoraxians to be so incredibly weak. But in all gathered replies Thoraxians and Burlusts were reported as the "weakest" meaning, in no observed game did they ever gain ANY kind of traction. There are various suggestions to fix this, but they may all be futile until we know what exactly causes this massive impotence with warlike races, but specifically Thoraxians. 1) Give them higher growth rate via a "princesses" system Each Princess boosts growth-rate and research/production by X% , princesses are gained at specific population steps (every 5m?) and can in case of death of the queen, take over the "Business" - princesses can be "killed" by dispatch as hostile actions, or "boosted" as friendly action. And stolen and sold maybe.... 2) Give Burlusts and Thoraxians specific technology paths that do not involve university and the normal research method. Something that gives them specific research only for them, to counter the massive advantages late-spacefaring races gain otherwise. Specifically, Acutians, Skylaxians and Evucks (who have a MAJOR tech and population advantage when starting later) 3) Generally find out what hampers these races so much. According to Keith they were not showing this behavior in the Alpha versions before, and only do so since recently. So something must have changed that severely hurt those races. We as players can not find the root issue though ;/ This creates a situation where the player gains high predictability over the game. And goes counter to the lore Thoraxians and Burlusts have. I want to fear the most powerful and scary races in the galaxy, I don't want to have to babysit em just so there is some kind of challenge ;p | ||||
| Tags | No tags attached. | ||||
| Internal Weight | New | ||||
| duplicate of | 0014405 | resolved | Chris_McElligottPark | warlike races dying too fast |
| parent of | 0014562 | resolved | Chris_McElligottPark | Research Tech: Should player research speed depend on planet research speed? |
| related to | 0014914 | resolved | Chris_McElligottPark | New race combat AI flaws |
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I'm the one who wrote about giving unique tech trees. My reasoning is that most current techs are "scientific" in a way that's virtual, robotic or transbiological in nature, which don't really fit the flavor of few species. Invention for Burlusts might mean more gritty weapons or social formation for more effective violence. If they need "clean science" they'll just steal the techs or kidnap scientists to do the brain works. Thoraxians is very biological in nature that I don't think they need laser pistols or vibroblades or universities. If they have their own improvements through biological evolution such as spreading disease that'll be terrifying for non-robotic races. Same argument for Boarines too. |
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Indeed, I added it because I think adding that to the game may in fact be 1 way to solve the severe "tech hole" that you mentioned. Which is a reason why these races do not survive mid-game even if you get them there in the first place. maybe we ought to split these suggestions, but I wasn't sure what else to write to offer any solutions to my ticket here ;p |
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Seeing the same issues myself. The apparently super-dangerous Thoraxians were outright deleted without effort by the Skylaxians for no apparent reason, and I'm guessing that the Burlust are next. |
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It's pretty bad. The Burlusts just got dominated by everybody. I didn't care about them, so that's acceptable. I tried *so hard* to prop the Thoraxians up, though. I don't know if it was a too-dumb-to-live thing there they attacked people much stronger than them or what, but I couldn't build them up fast enough and pay off enough people to leave them alone. For instance, I couldn't ask the Skylaxians, and the Andor didn't have the right party in power. Of course the Acutians are probably *overpowered*. They are reliably the first dominant power in the game, though they are quite capable of being taken down by everyone else. |
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I wouldn't mind if all races had the potential to become the dominant power though. This balance issue severely hampers emergent gameplay and is imo a pretty major issue all around. As it robs the game of a lot of challenges. And my favorite race not being able to kill everyone else is even worse ;P |
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This should fix the current issue for now, but please let us know if you still see it: * The Burlusts and Thoraxians no longer attack races that have critically-weak ground power when the aggressor race's space power is less than the defender race's space power. That was a mistake that was causing them to just be overly aggressive and absolutely suicide themselves in a lot of cases. |
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Another fix idea: ALlow the stealing or aquisition of tech through battle. And give the Thoraxians and burlust unique (or better) ways of doing this. Adding a tech theft posibility for spy satallites for instance. Each satalite could give a small chance of theft for EACH unknown tech per some kind of time frame, probably with a start-up delay so the player can potentially intervene. Thus the greater the tech difference (ie the more stealable techs there are) the more effective spying becomes and though the spying races are still lagging behind, that lag gets exponentially harder to increase and maintain. Respecting prereqs (by making the chance of stealing a tech you don't have the prereq for 0) would prevent insane leaps forward. Simillarly, waging battles (space or ground) give each side a small chance of "stealing" an appropriate tech per some given time frame (so quick battles have no chance, but long sieges increase the chance of a tech or two being transfered). Also, salvaging scrap should give a small chance of an appropriate tech being stolen (possibly a chance of planting the tech when the scrap is created would avoid problems like aquiring tech from scrap that was researched at a later time and couldn't possibly have been present in the scrap). Insead of a percentage chance, a small contribution to the race's progress on that tech might be considered (or reduction in time required, similar to the effects of goons). So fighting all the time is HOW burlust research, they'll never get ahead with this method, but they can keep up, and it's a VERY burlust approach to tech research. |
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Just to update this, in 1.012 I find that the Thoraxians are better than they used to be. I've seen them be somewhat credible threats, although I still had a game where I didn't help them (as opposed to starting with them spacefaring and docking with the station) and they never managed to do anything despite me never lifting a finger against them (I spent the entire game making attitude buildings). The Burlusts are still a joke, though. I *have* seen them conquer a planet or two in observer games, but I'm usually having to call the stronger races (Evucks, Acutians, and Skylaxians) off from attacking them. |
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Yeah this seems at best to prevent their instant death and they can become powerful with luck, but never powerful enough to compete against Evu Acu and Sky races. Especially Evucks are insane. I've seen them survive a 100 year onslaught on their 1 world where 7 ! acutians planets pumped fleets out to attack the 1 evuck world... in the end, Evucks won that game. So maybe the issue is that some races are vastly more powerful that's holding the other races back. With some effort you can get Thoraxians to expand, but I didn't yet manage to ever win a round with em. |
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I've made some more adjustments in 1.015, so we'll see how that seems there. |
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Definitely fixed by now. :) |
| Date Modified | Username | Field | Change |
|---|---|---|---|
| Apr 22, 2014 3:44 pm | eRe4s3r | New Issue | |
| Apr 22, 2014 5:01 pm | Raide | Note Added: 0036463 | |
| Apr 22, 2014 5:01 pm | Raide | Note Edited: 0036463 | |
| Apr 22, 2014 6:50 pm | eRe4s3r | Note Added: 0036469 | |
| Apr 22, 2014 9:15 pm | Misery | Note Added: 0036482 | |
| Apr 23, 2014 7:42 pm | GC13 | Note Added: 0036597 | |
| Apr 23, 2014 10:32 pm | eRe4s3r | Note Added: 0036606 | |
| Apr 24, 2014 7:54 am | pepboy | Relationship added | parent of 0014562 |
| Apr 28, 2014 12:25 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Note Added: 0036927 | |
| Apr 28, 2014 12:25 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Assigned To | => Chris_McElligottPark |
| Apr 28, 2014 12:25 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Status | new => feedback |
| Apr 28, 2014 1:09 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Relationship added | duplicate of 0014405 |
| Apr 30, 2014 7:54 pm | Drak | Note Added: 0037091 | |
| May 4, 2014 11:37 am | GC13 | Note Added: 0037324 | |
| May 4, 2014 5:38 pm | eRe4s3r | Note Added: 0037334 | |
| May 4, 2014 5:38 pm | eRe4s3r | Status | feedback => assigned |
| May 4, 2014 10:32 pm | timfortress | Relationship added | related to 0014914 |
| May 6, 2014 4:47 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Note Added: 0037613 | |
| May 6, 2014 4:47 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Status | assigned => feedback |
| May 21, 2014 10:22 am | Chris_McElligottPark | Internal Weight | => New |
| May 21, 2014 10:22 am | Chris_McElligottPark | Note Added: 0038237 | |
| May 21, 2014 10:22 am | Chris_McElligottPark | Status | feedback => resolved |
| May 21, 2014 10:22 am | Chris_McElligottPark | Resolution | open => fixed |
